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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Trigger warning - rape?

208 replies

Notsure12348 · 22/09/2023 22:42

Name changed as pretty sensitive post. Please don’t read if possible sexual assault will be triggering for you.

Would really appreciate thoughts on whether the following situation would be considered rape/ sexual assault or just a misunderstanding or something else.

  • Female and male both attracted to each other and engaging in foreplay.
  • Female tells male she is happy to have sex but only if a condom is used. Very clear about this being a condition for sex.
  • Male says he doesn’t have any condoms and female doesn’t either, so agree no sex.
  • Kissing etc and naked, male on top of female.
  • Female feels something slightly entering vagina, assumes male’s fingers - fine with this.
  • Female realises it might be male’s penis so asks - he confirms it is.
  • Female tells male she is not comfortable with this, he replies “oh don’t say that” and immediately stops.

Not nescessarily directly impacting upon the above but following this:

  • Female and male continue to kiss etc.
  • Next morning male finds he does have a condom and they have sex.
  • Over text when female raises the previous issue, male replies along the lines of saying that he doesn’t understand why she is concerned as he has no STIs and that as they were naked, his penis was bound to touch her, but doesn’t deny that it did penetrate her.

AIBU:

  • Reasonable: it was rape or sexual assault.
  • Unreasonable: it was a misunderstanding or some other situation that was not an assault.
OP posts:
RufustheFactualReindeer · 23/09/2023 09:18

personally I can't get my head around calling that rape, it isn't

in your opinion

in the law it’s considered rape….unlikely get to court

LunaMay · 23/09/2023 09:19

LDNH · 23/09/2023 01:47

He'd already raped her by this point. He stopped raping her when she asked him to stop.

Show quote history

I know its unpopular to say but i hate that something like this is seen the same as someone having gone through a traumatic violent sexual assault. It is what it is though.

Sorry you're having these feelings brought up again OP, do get yourself some counseling.

AlwaysPrettyOnTheInside · 23/09/2023 09:21

FannyFifer · 22/09/2023 23:52

Hmmm, agreement was sex only with a condom although they both maintained physical contact in that position without putting underwear back on, so possibly went from penis rubbing against clit or whatever to entry. He then stopped immediately.

I really dunno on this, personally I would not class as rape but understand that this would be very different for others who would class as such.

This, it depends if it really was accidental.

Fallingthroughclouds · 23/09/2023 09:26

I can only assume that at your heart you don't consider this rape. Surely no one would have consensual sex with their rapist 10 hours later.

MisschiefMaker · 23/09/2023 09:26

Even if you gave the exact same accounts in court I don't think this would count as rape.

You said you would only do it with a condom. Then you both got naked and frisky, he tried his luck to see if you'd changed your mind by poking you in the vagina with his penis, and when you said no he stopped. I don't think this is rape, although it's annoying behaviour for sure.

If he wanted to rape you he wouldn't have stopped when you said no.

LDNH · 23/09/2023 09:51

Sweedey · 23/09/2023 08:41

@LDNH if you report to the police, they ask questions during the interview. Your therapist will ask questions to understand the situation. PP hasn't done anything wrong in asking that question.

I though it was more about op reflecting on what happened than her saying she has no right to be upset.

To answer the question, no I don't think it's rape. He didn't penetrate and stopped. Still deeply upsetting that he tried to do that and put your health at risk. You could approach the police about this and ask for advice.

Of course the police will ask questions. And the CPS wouldn't take this to court because there's no realistic prospect of conviction. The reason? You only have to look at the comments to see how easily a jury could be convinced she's confused, she gave mixed signals, he only raped her a bit and stopped raping her when asked (as if that somehow makes it OK?).

These attitudes are part of the reason why it's almost impossible to convict rape.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 23/09/2023 09:52

if something entered the vagina then it penetrated

where are people getting the ‘did not penetrate’ from?

LDNH · 23/09/2023 10:04

Fallingthroughclouds · 23/09/2023 09:26

I can only assume that at your heart you don't consider this rape. Surely no one would have consensual sex with their rapist 10 hours later.

Ah yes, she said "no" but deep down she really wanted it.

FFS.

Fallingthroughclouds · 23/09/2023 10:07

LDNH · 23/09/2023 10:04

Ah yes, she said "no" but deep down she really wanted it.

FFS.

Show quote history

So you'd have consensual sex with someone who you considered raped you. Really? I sure as damn well wouldn't and he would not be staying the night either.

Startingagainandagain · 23/09/2023 10:18

@MisschiefMaker
''If he wanted to rape you he wouldn't have stopped when you said no.''

She had clearly said no to penetration without a condom. That did not stop him from doing just that.

BananaSlug · 23/09/2023 10:18

Absolutely not rape or even sexual assault. I would say most women I know have experienced something like this, it’s called trying his luck. You had sex with him after so couldn’t have been that traumatic.

MsPloddingBottom · 23/09/2023 10:21

So you'd have consensual sex with someone who you considered raped you. Really? I sure as damn well wouldn't and he would not be staying the night either.

That's not how rape works.

For example, wives don't immediately divorce their husbands if he puns her down and forces himself on her. She might stay and have sex again another time.

If a violent stranger pulls you into an alley yes. Someone you know? Things aren't that simple.

MsPloddingBottom · 23/09/2023 10:23

I can't say if this is rape or not. Slightly pushing in, as the op said, can be thought of differently. I didn't understand it to mean penetration, but I was not there.

The idea that it's not rape because she had sex again is nonsense.

applesandmares · 23/09/2023 10:26

@BananaSlug I'm curious what your definition of rape is, seeing as it clearly isn't penetration of the vagina (or mouth or anus) without consent. Does there have to be an element of violence? Threatening behaviour? Please explain.

BananaSlug · 23/09/2023 10:27

applesandmares · 23/09/2023 10:26

@BananaSlug I'm curious what your definition of rape is, seeing as it clearly isn't penetration of the vagina (or mouth or anus) without consent. Does there have to be an element of violence? Threatening behaviour? Please explain.

My definition of rape? Not this, not even close, not everything is rape like people want to make it into these days. And clearly many others agree it’s not.

Startingagainandagain · 23/09/2023 10:29

This thread is so depressing...

OP it is perfectly fine to be confused and upset about what happened. I would say try to speak to someone to help you make sense of your emotions. There are some really good charities that run helpline and places you can go to to access emergency services after a sexual assault.

I had a story a bit similar to yours (trigger warning)

I started dated a male friend of 5 years and had had no concerns about his behaviour a this stage.

We initially had consensual sex for the first time and I insisted on a condom. The second time something just felt wrong and I asked him to stop, very clearly, twice, but he did not and just continued... I also realised he had removed the condom. I was left in tears. After that he just acted as normal as if nothing had happened.

I was left numb and frozen and actually stayed the night because my body and mind just could not comprehend what had just happened (that my friend who I had known for years had forced himself on me) and I felt trapped. I left early in the morning as soon as I knew the trains would be running again.

I blamed myself for having agreed to have sex with him in the first place.

It took me days to process it and I ended up in a sexual health clinic where a specialist trained nurse helped me understand that although the initial encounter had started as consensual the fact that he had not stopped what he was doing when I asked him too meant that it was assault and she told me about stealthing as well.

I know there is no way this would stand up in court but at least in my mind I know that what he did was wrong. Have yourself tested as well because unfortunately my rapist also gave me a common STD...

saffronsoup · 23/09/2023 10:30

Penises don't really fall into vaginas so if he manually directed his penis into your vagina, then yes this is sexual assault as you had been clear you didn't want that. Penetration requires one being in a specific position as angles are involved and usually requires a hand or a look. There is intention as it is inserting a hard long body part into a small hole. If it was his penis rubbing against you without intentional penetration while you frolicked naked in bed and did other sexual things - then no.

Both might make you uncomfortable given your own concerns about the meds you were on but only one is sexual assault. Your feelings don't determine criminality.

morbidd · 23/09/2023 10:33

Yes that is rape as it was penetrating and he knew your boundary around the condom.

Either way, wether it was rape or SA isn't the point as it is taking again from how it made you feel.

He ultimately ignored your boundaries to get what he wanted, which was P in V without a condom.

MenopauseSucks · 23/09/2023 10:34

I think it was definitely sexual assault verging on rape.
Yes you could say 'oh well he was trying it on & he stopped when asked' but he was pushing past your boundaries.
So you had consensual sex with a condom on - ie within your boundaries - doesn't count.
As the video says, in the morning you asked for tea & you drank it.
The night before however you specifically said you didn't want tea - you wanted coffee instead - but he was going to make you a cup of tea & drink it regardless of your choice.

He tried to grab your bag the next morning & he tried to push your boundaries the night before.
To me, these are very much red flags🚩 There could come a time when he ignores your boundaries & could get a bit rough as he does it.
I wouldn't see him again. The 'grabbing the bag' would've scared & I would be worried that the situation could've quite easily escalated.

Doggymummar · 23/09/2023 10:35

Having been raped I would not consider this to be rape. But I would not have had sex with him the next day. Once he stopped I would have told him to leave and that would be the end of it.

applesandmares · 23/09/2023 10:36

@BananaSlug I appreciate you don't think that this is rape (despite the legal definition suggesting otherwise and there being convictions for rape in the UK as a result of stealthing) but I want to know what you would consider rape to be.

category12 · 23/09/2023 10:37

Penetration without consent is rape. Doesn't matter for how long or how deep.

You didn't consent to penetration without a condom. He penetrated you.

Londontown12 · 23/09/2023 10:40

People saying it isn’t rape say “ he STOPPED when asked “
HE HAD NO RIGHT OR CONSENT TO START wtaf 😳 No means no and yes he was trying his luck he knew what he was doing !

Rockschooldropout · 23/09/2023 10:42

He penetrated you without your consent

it’s rape

BeatenByAScone · 23/09/2023 10:57

I'm angry and appalled at some of the responses here. Since so many people have mentioned "stealthing", I can only hope that it's due to a lack of comprehension.

This was clearly not stealthing. OP had said she would only have penetrative sex with a condom. At that point there was no condom so there was never any expectation that the male would use a condom. Therefore there was no consent to penetrative sex. The boundaries were very clear.

Then there are those who say "he was only pushing his luck" or suggested OP might have changed her mind once they reached that point. Again, OP had clearly laid out the boundaries beforehand and male had agreed to those conditions. Even if we were to be incredibly generous with the benefit of doubt, it's really not difficult to take a couple of seconds to check with your partner before attempting to do something you'd agreed not to do.

Then there are those who are suggesting it wasn't rape because "he stopped when you asked him to". That doesn't delete the fact he'd already chosen to put his penis in her vagina, despite knowing she didn't consent. Perhaps it's easier to understand if we take the sexual aspect out of it. Let's say someone was tickling you and you didn't want them to so asked them to stop. They immediately stop. Does that mean they hadn't tickled you before you asked them to stop?

And then there are those who agree that there was intentional penetration without consent but think this wasn't rape because it wasn't rapey enough, or because OP went on to have consensual sex with the same person on a separate occasion. It's sad to see people still hold these beliefs.

OP, whatever feelings you have about this encounter are entirely valid. It was rape. You did nothing "wrong" and are not accountable for his actions. I'm sorry so many other posters suggest differently.

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