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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Trigger warning - rape?

208 replies

Notsure12348 · 22/09/2023 22:42

Name changed as pretty sensitive post. Please don’t read if possible sexual assault will be triggering for you.

Would really appreciate thoughts on whether the following situation would be considered rape/ sexual assault or just a misunderstanding or something else.

  • Female and male both attracted to each other and engaging in foreplay.
  • Female tells male she is happy to have sex but only if a condom is used. Very clear about this being a condition for sex.
  • Male says he doesn’t have any condoms and female doesn’t either, so agree no sex.
  • Kissing etc and naked, male on top of female.
  • Female feels something slightly entering vagina, assumes male’s fingers - fine with this.
  • Female realises it might be male’s penis so asks - he confirms it is.
  • Female tells male she is not comfortable with this, he replies “oh don’t say that” and immediately stops.

Not nescessarily directly impacting upon the above but following this:

  • Female and male continue to kiss etc.
  • Next morning male finds he does have a condom and they have sex.
  • Over text when female raises the previous issue, male replies along the lines of saying that he doesn’t understand why she is concerned as he has no STIs and that as they were naked, his penis was bound to touch her, but doesn’t deny that it did penetrate her.

AIBU:

  • Reasonable: it was rape or sexual assault.
  • Unreasonable: it was a misunderstanding or some other situation that was not an assault.
OP posts:
KitDeLuca · 23/09/2023 01:09

Completely agree with the very clear definition of rape. The facts here however suggest that OP was willing to have sex with him just not unprotected sex. And she made that very clear to him. They both carried on kissing and cuddling whilst naked. She consented to sex the next morning with a condom which adds weight to the argument that her previous caution was only in relation to the lack of condom. I agree it was possibly a shit move on his part but we don't know his state of mind or how heated the "foreplay" was. Absolutely No must always mean No but I don't believe it would be in the best interests of OP for her to label this encounter as rape. They can both learn from it.

Mamai90 · 23/09/2023 01:09

I wouldn't class it as rape, trying his luck possibly.

Your feelings of anger are valid though and I probably wouldn't see him again.

CC222 · 23/09/2023 01:11

@Notsure12348 Your anger is very valid. You set clear boundaries and he crossed them without your consent. He inserted himself inside you and didn't stop until you questioned him. Just because he stopped, doesn't make what he did was ok.
In the eyes of the law this is rape, it doesn't need to be a violent act to be rape. Intercourse without consent is rape. Proving it in the court of law would be very challenging unfortunately.
Whoever this guy is, please never allow him into your personal space again. His behaviour was beyond unacceptable.
I hope you're ok, if you do feel like this experience has caused your any trauma please seek counselling xx

KitDeLuca · 23/09/2023 01:11

Just seen your further update OP, ripping and grabbing or any kind of violent outburst is a red flag anyway regardless. Don't see him again and don't beat yourself up about it x

ThreePointOneFourOneFiveNine · 23/09/2023 01:14

It was penetration of vagina with penis without consent. Erm.. isn't that pretty much the definition?

KitDeLuca · 23/09/2023 01:20

It is the definition, but there is room for ambiguity and misunderstanding between no consent to penetration at all and no consent to ejaculation without a condom when a couple continue doing "other stuff". Not saying he's in the right at all (he sounds like a nobhead)) just that in this specific circumstance no good can come of OP berating herself or believing she was raped when she had consensual sex with him a few hours later.

Original poster
Notsure12348 · 23/09/2023 01:22

CC222 · 23/09/2023 01:11

@Notsure12348 Your anger is very valid. You set clear boundaries and he crossed them without your consent. He inserted himself inside you and didn't stop until you questioned him. Just because he stopped, doesn't make what he did was ok.
In the eyes of the law this is rape, it doesn't need to be a violent act to be rape. Intercourse without consent is rape. Proving it in the court of law would be very challenging unfortunately.
Whoever this guy is, please never allow him into your personal space again. His behaviour was beyond unacceptable.
I hope you're ok, if you do feel like this experience has caused your any trauma please seek counselling xx

Thanks, absolutely no interest in seeking prosecution or anything. I think I am going to look into some counselling. It happened some time ago but the Russell Brand media attention has brought it back into my mind as it was a work colleague like some of RB’s victims. To be clear though it wasn’t RB - this person is actually in the Police now 😭

OP posts:
KitDeLuca · 23/09/2023 01:22

I think OPs real issue is that he didn't care or even acknowledge her feelings around this issue and that's his real crime. Don't look back OP x

LDNH · 23/09/2023 01:24

Honestly, I'm shocked at most of these replies!

There's no gray area here. It doesn't matter that he only penetrated her a bit, or that he stopped raping her when she said no (what a gentleman!). He penetrated her without consent, that's rape.

I agree totally with this 👇

"applesandmares · Today 00:59

Interesting to see many PPs consider this not to be rape.

The definition is:

(1)
A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)
he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b)
B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c)
A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

He intentionally penetrated her vagina with his penis (it does not need to be "full penetration"). OP did not consent to this, and he didn't reasonably believe she did, as per their conversation around the necessity of a condom."

Shannonz · 23/09/2023 01:32

Unacceptable but I wouldn’t class it as rape.
Can I ask though genuinely if it made you feel uncomfortable and you was so angry about it as you said why did you have sex with him in the morning?

LDNH · 23/09/2023 01:35

KitDeLuca · Today 01:20

It is the definition, but there is room for ambiguity and misunderstanding

This is a very dangerous mindset and part of the reason why so few women are believed........ It's not the man's fault, the woman must have given him mixed signals.

Read the OP again, she was very clear what she was consenting to, there's no ambiguity.

YoureALizardHarry11 · 23/09/2023 01:35

You told him no without a condom, he entered you anyway, probably thinking, ‘’I’ll try my luck regardless, she might enjoy it too much to stop’’ as evidenced by his ‘’oh, don’t say that’’ remark. He knew what he was doing, this was no accident. I would be absolutely furious he thought it was ok to enter my body after I said no.

I don’t blame you feeling angry, OP. Just reading your post and all the the people defending him made me furious

Hillcrest2022 · 23/09/2023 01:35

Don't see him again. He violated your boundaries.

Please don't contact him again and know that your instincts were right

Original poster
Notsure12348 · 23/09/2023 01:38

Shannonz · 23/09/2023 01:32

Unacceptable but I wouldn’t class it as rape.
Can I ask though genuinely if it made you feel uncomfortable and you was so angry about it as you said why did you have sex with him in the morning?

I think I hadn’t really processed it at that point. I really liked him. In hindsight yes, leaving straight away would have been better.

OP posts:
Shannonz · 23/09/2023 01:40

OP that’s fair enough! It’s hard to know sometimes what you would do in that situation. Take care ❤️

Bluelightbaby · 23/09/2023 01:43

I wouldn’t consider this rape. He stopped immediately when asked

LDNH · 23/09/2023 01:43

Shannonz · 23/09/2023 01:32

Unacceptable but I wouldn’t class it as rape.
Can I ask though genuinely if it made you feel uncomfortable and you was so angry about it as you said why did you have sex with him in the morning?

Totally irrelevant. She can give/withdraw consent at any point, for any reason.

What you're implying is: you had sex with him the next day, so your "no" the previous night can't have meant "no" really.

And this is why conviction rates are so low, because there'll be police officers and people on juries thinking like this.

TrishM80 · 23/09/2023 01:47

I think he was trying it on. I'm sure at some stage, many women have been in a situation where they've said "no" originally but changed their mind when things got hot and heavy. This change of mind isn't always communicated verbally, but the woman is happy to let the man continue, and this is probably what this fella was testing.

He stopped when she asked him, and she was happy to have sex with him the next morning, so this doesn't fall under the category of rape for me. Or I doubt it would in court, it would be torn to shreds by a half decent barrister.

LDNH · 23/09/2023 01:47

Bluelightbaby · 23/09/2023 01:43

I wouldn’t consider this rape. He stopped immediately when asked

He'd already raped her by this point. He stopped raping her when she asked him to stop.

Hillcrest2022 · 23/09/2023 01:48

OP no judgement on you at all regardless of what happened the next morning.

I feel that you were uncomfortable with the whole.sotiation so that's enough.

I hope you're OK and feeling safe now. Please take care of yourself and be mindful of risks. Get yourself home in a cab by 11pm and make that your goal.

applesandmares · 23/09/2023 01:50

For what it's worth, I think he did understand why you were upset, but he didn't want to 'recognise' it, and chose to minimise it out of fear that you'd report it (and confuse you!).

That's probably why he was desperate enough to stop you leaving that he ripped your bag. This was probably especially sensitive to him given his profession & ambitions.

Things like RB being all over the news can really trigger complex feelings. When Sarah Everard was murdered (and the subsequent campaigns about women's safety occurred) I became quite fixated on a past sexual assault.

Remember, you don't need to label it to justify your feelings. You don't need other people to validate your feelings either. You and entitled to them and they exist regardless. Take care and be kind to yourself! ❤️

KitDeLuca · 23/09/2023 01:53

It's this bit of the definition
c)
A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

He might argue he has reasonable belief that she consents to everything except him coming inside her.

I'm playing devils advocate here because I'm absolutely not defending him. My reason for pointing out how it might not been seen as clearly rape is because I believe no good can come from OP going down that rabbit hole in these circumstances.

KitDeLuca · 23/09/2023 01:55

@applesandmares

This is the best response so far :-

For what it's worth, I think he did understand why you were upset, but he didn't want to 'recognise' it, and chose to minimise it out of fear that you'd report it (and confuse you!).

That's probably why he was desperate enough to stop you leaving that he ripped your bag. This was probably especially sensitive to him given his profession & ambitions.

Things like RB being all over the news can really trigger complex feelings. When Sarah Everard was murdered (and the subsequent campaigns about women's safety occurred) I became quite fixated on a past sexual assault.

Remember, you don't need to label it to justify your feelings. You don't need other people to validate your feelings either. You and entitled to them and they exist regardless. Take care and be kind to yourself! ❤️

LDNH · 23/09/2023 01:56

TrishM80 · 23/09/2023 01:47

I think he was trying it on. I'm sure at some stage, many women have been in a situation where they've said "no" originally but changed their mind when things got hot and heavy. This change of mind isn't always communicated verbally, but the woman is happy to let the man continue, and this is probably what this fella was testing.

He stopped when she asked him, and she was happy to have sex with him the next morning, so this doesn't fall under the category of rape for me. Or I doubt it would in court, it would be torn to shreds by a half decent barrister.

She was very clear about what she was and wasn't consenting to and she didn't change her mind. He stopped raping her when she asked him to stop.

The reason why this wouldn't stand up in court is because there'll be police officers and people on juries thinking like you, thinking that she didn't really mean know, she gave him mixed messages.

OP, I'm so sorry this happened to you and I'm sorry you're getting replies like this. I'm genuinely shocked by some of these attitudes.

Angrywife · 23/09/2023 01:56

If I didn't want to risk it, I wouldn't be getting naked under him 🤷