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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I've made a massive mistake and ruined my DC lives.

206 replies

fml666 · 28/08/2023 10:26

I finally left my exDH ( father to my 2 DC) 3 years ago. He was a complete cocklodger who had checked out of family life and spent all his ( considerable) spare time on his phone, messaging other women it turned out. He "worked" as a self employed gardener which amounted to cutting a couple of lawns a week at most. Refused to get a proper job. Didn't do anything at home either, except hoard, buy dogs, and make a mess.

After we split he hardly saw the children, once every couple of weeks possibly? Has never contributed financially towards them until recently when CMS calculated he needed to pay £30 a month. I was working full time and really, really struggling with after school care etc. A year after we split I made the decision to move myself and my children to live near all my family so they could support us. Unfortunately this was 350 miles away though. The children were excited about this adventure at the time. They weren't bothered about leaving their DF as they hardly saw him.

3 years on and they are both unhappy here and want to move back to live near their DF. My DD12 is unrecognisable. She cuts herself, has been suicidal, has done terribly at school, etc etc. She says it's because she hates living here. We have a lovely house, family nearby and they both have friends here. But they still miss their DF. Despite the fact he never ever contacts them unless I make him, and only see him if I arrange it and take them to see him.

I'm really happy here, other than worry about the DC. I have a job I love, friends and a new partner. Which makes me feel even more guilty.

I can't put this right. I can't afford to move back there, and struggle like I did. But I feel my DDs life is getting worse and worse due to her seemingly being intent on making bad decisions ( seeking out troubled children, shop lifting, etc etc.)

I've only just admitted to myself today it was a mistake. I kept thinking they'd settle. But they haven't. It was the wrong thing to do for them. Can I put this right?

OP posts:
menopausalbloat · 28/08/2023 16:09

This is not your fault.
Please, if you haven't already. get help from your GP.
It sounds like your daughter needs therapy.
I went through this with my son.

MrsLargeEmbodied · 28/08/2023 16:12

my dd had a rubber band on her wrist for her to ping when she felt overwhelmed,
also listen to her
without response, she might be happy to talk to you without the need for you to answer

fml666 · 28/08/2023 16:21

Thanks for all your replies. Very thought provoking. I've been sat in tears reading your responses, and appreciate the ( mostly) kindness.

I will absolutely admit that I misjudged the emotional impact that moving away from their father has had on my DC. Although I'm not convinced it's all about that, on reflection, and considering all circumstances with the help of posters on here. They used to cry at the thought of going to their dad's when we still lived down there, it was heartbreaking having to hand them over to him distraught. That contact actually stopped completely after a couple of months as he used it as an excuse not to see them. He could have come to see them in their own house, but he didn't bother. I fully believe that if we were still there they would hardly ever see him.

Also, DD was upset a couple of months ago, said she missed her dad. It was half term the following week so I offered to take her to see him ( after him refusing to come here.) She didn't go in the end as she said she wanted to spend time with her friends instead.

Can I point out that their dad NEVER phones them even. And they never phone him either. In the beginning I would nag them to phone him, but stopped after he made no effort back. Every school holidays I ask HIM if they can come and stay. He has NEVER initiated contact with them in 3 years.

To answer another question, we moved from very rural to a large town.

OP posts:
Floralnomad · 28/08/2023 16:24

Now your daughter is 12 perhaps now is the time to just let her sort out contact with her dad , I assume she has a phone .

AlienatedChildGrown · 28/08/2023 16:24

MumGMT · 28/08/2023 15:59

If there's a shit parent then there's a shit parent, whether that's the mother or the father.

The shit parent is the one who has to go in first to fixing it, because the not shit parent has generally always tried to get them involved and it hasn't worked.

Why would you put the least able parent at the helm of the ship your child is on when the first dark clouds of a storm are already apparent ?

Suicidal thinking doesn’t always disappear with the spots when adolescence has been and gone. It can be a significant symptom arising from the loss of a parent that manifests around that time and then dogs a person for decades to come. It’s really not the sort of context where “you lot fucked the kids up, so you lot fix them” is a risk worth taking.

Boomboom22 · 28/08/2023 16:27

I don't really believe in taking not bad mouthing the other parent so far that you are essentially lying to children. It's very confusing. Obviously he doesn't love them much or care and their stable adult pretending he does makes it OK fir him to ignore them and affects what they think relationships are. I'm not convinced the truth is bad mouthing anyway.

MumGMT · 28/08/2023 16:30

AlienatedChildGrown · 28/08/2023 16:24

Why would you put the least able parent at the helm of the ship your child is on when the first dark clouds of a storm are already apparent ?

Suicidal thinking doesn’t always disappear with the spots when adolescence has been and gone. It can be a significant symptom arising from the loss of a parent that manifests around that time and then dogs a person for decades to come. It’s really not the sort of context where “you lot fucked the kids up, so you lot fix them” is a risk worth taking.

I just said why.

People have tried it the other way for a long time, pandering, coaxing, encouraging, being the bigger person, saying nothing bad.....and it DOES NOT encourage the shit parent to be a better one.

You're the one suggesting something can be done. I can't see what possibly can be done except for making it less socially acceptable to be a shit parent, because most have already tried the nicely nicely approach, and while overall deadbeats are considered deadbeats, that doesn't trickle down to day to day social acceptableness because no one seems to ever call these shit parents out when they know them.

There is NOTHING which suggests that this man will do a 180 and become a good parent, so the OP pandering more is likely to do more harm than good as he has now started to badmouth the mother to the kids.

Mumtobabyhavoc · 28/08/2023 16:55

Moving was the right thing for all of you.
Counselling/family counselling could help all of you. You're kids are old enough to be told simple truth that dad can visit any time he wants, they can visit him as well, and the telephone is available to everyone.

PoshPineapple · 28/08/2023 17:05

Beetlebuggy · 28/08/2023 14:43

The OP had the full financial and practical burden of caring for her kids. What role model was a father who doesn't provide financially, doesn't help round the house, infact leaves it in a state, hoards and sits on his arse, whilst his wife struggles to manage.
What would her children be learning from that role model? How to treat their future partners, how they are not a priority in their father's eyes?
Yes, children will always benefit from a decent responsible father, but a feckless one is probably more harmful than no father at all.
A lot of these father "warriors" seem to believe just their male aura is enough to bring up a well balanced child.

100% agree

AlienatedChildGrown · 28/08/2023 17:32

MumGMT · 28/08/2023 16:30

I just said why.

People have tried it the other way for a long time, pandering, coaxing, encouraging, being the bigger person, saying nothing bad.....and it DOES NOT encourage the shit parent to be a better one.

You're the one suggesting something can be done. I can't see what possibly can be done except for making it less socially acceptable to be a shit parent, because most have already tried the nicely nicely approach, and while overall deadbeats are considered deadbeats, that doesn't trickle down to day to day social acceptableness because no one seems to ever call these shit parents out when they know them.

There is NOTHING which suggests that this man will do a 180 and become a good parent, so the OP pandering more is likely to do more harm than good as he has now started to badmouth the mother to the kids.

The answer is ENTIRELY about making it socially unacceptable to prioritise parental wants before children’s needs.

All the parental wants. Not just the Nominated Crap Parents’ ones.

Children typically love their parents and want to feel loved by and important to their parents. Crap or otherwise.

These same children exist in a society where their missing parent is assumed to have little to no feelings for them. To be a complete waste of space at best. And what some children come to believe deep inside is they are an unlovable, genetically half a waste of space human.

Have a think for a minute how much the message about this child’s father seen on this board filters through to her real world. There’s nothing on here that isn’t bandied about off-line.

She had a huge change in family set-up and contact. Within a year of that there was a huge change in her environment. The barrier between her “not got his shit together” dad and her was raised by significant distance. Adolescent looms. She’s had to deal with so many changes, none of which she actively sought, and her genetic make up is half “crap at life and priorities human”. If she says what’s causing her pain, as well as she’s able to understand it and express it her age, she’s faces the prospect of being invalidated with societal suggestions that her glasses are rose-coloured and anyway it’s her unloving, waste of space’s dad’s fault so blame him. Like that is going to help tamp down the pain of being alive.

This is the social soup we expect children (NNT and otherwise) to trek through from childhood to young adulthood. And then we wonder why they think their life is perhaps not worth living, why this body they inhabit doesn’t reflect the scars on their soul well enough, why there’s no point talking to be heard, why there is no point in aiming for good behaviour & education when they are probably doomed as an “unlovable, half crap gene pool” future person anyway.

When I talk about doing something, making a change, I’m talking about making significant changes to the ingredients in the soup we expect children of separation to live in. With a lot less emphasis on whose spoon was/is stirring improperly.

A mother is seeing her child self destruct and doesn’t know how to help her. More of the same soup for the child to wade through is unlikely to make her mother’s future pain any lesser.

OP The NSPCC were really good at finding resources for my mother when I “went off the rails”. The resources weren’t much, but I lucked out and one bloke listened without counter arguments that wafted away the validity of what I was feeling. It didn’t change anything materially. But it gave me enough space to feel not crazy and made of the wrong stuff to keep on plodding on (erratically) onwards alive and in one piece until I was out of adolescence. But it was a very long time ago and I have no idea if the organisation is as practical as it was back then. You are going to be feeling really low on fuel right now. Could the pastoral staff at school help with tracking down local charities or non-profits that work with kids who are struggling this hard ? You cannot change the past. Parental choices made in good faith are much easier to manage internally once adolescence has properly passed by. Focus what little energy you have left on finding a place or a specialist that can hold her up while she wobbles. Who did what wrong and is at fault will matter very much less in the long term than you might believe at the moment. We grow up. The shades of grey become more apparent. What we needed V what each of our parents were able to provide in their circumstances becomes more nuanced. We can love both, resemble both, grieve the life we thought we would have with both, forgive both (for whatever they did, big and small) given the help, space and time to do so.

MumGMT · 28/08/2023 18:25

@AlienatedChildGrown

When I talk about doing something, making a change, I’m talking about making significant changes to the ingredients in the soup we expect children of separation to live in. With a lot less emphasis on whose spoon was/is stirring improperly.

What does this mean in practical terms?

Have a think for a minute how much the message about this child’s father seen on this board filters through to her real world.

The feelings this child will pick up from their fathers lack of involvement are mostly as a result of living through the experience, not because she's hearing messages about deadbeats. Humans unfortunately do internalise rejection or perceived rejection and that's due to our humanness, not because we are told stuff by society.

JMSA · 28/08/2023 18:28

Oh, you poor poor thing. I have teenage girls and they're a real source of worry. Hugs to you Flowers

Sleepimpossible · 28/08/2023 18:29

OP, I think you sound like a lovely, caring Mum and I don’t believe you’ve ruined your DCs’ lives at all. Their father could have done much, much more to maintain a relationship with them - you meanwhile, have done everything you could to facilitate the relationship. Why wouldn’t you have moved back for family support? I would have done the same. Get as much support and help as you can now for your daughter, privately will be quicker if you possibly can. Stop blaming yourself though.

pinkfondu · 28/08/2023 18:30

I promise you the move is not the issue. If he wanted to speak to them and see them you wouldn't have to work so hard at it. He is damaging tgem by saying those things.

getfreddynow · 28/08/2023 23:16

‘This is the social soup we expect children (NNT and otherwise) to trek through from childhood to young adulthood. And then we wonder why they think their life is perhaps not worth living, why this body they inhabit doesn’t reflect the scars on their soul well enough, why there’s no point talking to be heard, why there is no point in aiming for good behaviour & education when they are probably doomed as an “unlovable, half crap gene pool” future person anyway.

I can see this. That the child experiences the failure of 1 half of the parental gene pool as their own failing has made me think.

Lonicerax · 29/08/2023 01:22

Yes, but speaking to an expert counsellor can tease this apart.
Chances are the DF had bad parenting himself or an addiction or something so it’s him that has issues that weren’t dealt with.
Being loved by other family members would compensate I would have thought.
But yes -having a crap parent is hard, he will always be her father.

Lastchancechica · 29/08/2023 07:12

AlienatedChildGrown · 28/08/2023 17:32

The answer is ENTIRELY about making it socially unacceptable to prioritise parental wants before children’s needs.

All the parental wants. Not just the Nominated Crap Parents’ ones.

Children typically love their parents and want to feel loved by and important to their parents. Crap or otherwise.

These same children exist in a society where their missing parent is assumed to have little to no feelings for them. To be a complete waste of space at best. And what some children come to believe deep inside is they are an unlovable, genetically half a waste of space human.

Have a think for a minute how much the message about this child’s father seen on this board filters through to her real world. There’s nothing on here that isn’t bandied about off-line.

She had a huge change in family set-up and contact. Within a year of that there was a huge change in her environment. The barrier between her “not got his shit together” dad and her was raised by significant distance. Adolescent looms. She’s had to deal with so many changes, none of which she actively sought, and her genetic make up is half “crap at life and priorities human”. If she says what’s causing her pain, as well as she’s able to understand it and express it her age, she’s faces the prospect of being invalidated with societal suggestions that her glasses are rose-coloured and anyway it’s her unloving, waste of space’s dad’s fault so blame him. Like that is going to help tamp down the pain of being alive.

This is the social soup we expect children (NNT and otherwise) to trek through from childhood to young adulthood. And then we wonder why they think their life is perhaps not worth living, why this body they inhabit doesn’t reflect the scars on their soul well enough, why there’s no point talking to be heard, why there is no point in aiming for good behaviour & education when they are probably doomed as an “unlovable, half crap gene pool” future person anyway.

When I talk about doing something, making a change, I’m talking about making significant changes to the ingredients in the soup we expect children of separation to live in. With a lot less emphasis on whose spoon was/is stirring improperly.

A mother is seeing her child self destruct and doesn’t know how to help her. More of the same soup for the child to wade through is unlikely to make her mother’s future pain any lesser.

OP The NSPCC were really good at finding resources for my mother when I “went off the rails”. The resources weren’t much, but I lucked out and one bloke listened without counter arguments that wafted away the validity of what I was feeling. It didn’t change anything materially. But it gave me enough space to feel not crazy and made of the wrong stuff to keep on plodding on (erratically) onwards alive and in one piece until I was out of adolescence. But it was a very long time ago and I have no idea if the organisation is as practical as it was back then. You are going to be feeling really low on fuel right now. Could the pastoral staff at school help with tracking down local charities or non-profits that work with kids who are struggling this hard ? You cannot change the past. Parental choices made in good faith are much easier to manage internally once adolescence has properly passed by. Focus what little energy you have left on finding a place or a specialist that can hold her up while she wobbles. Who did what wrong and is at fault will matter very much less in the long term than you might believe at the moment. We grow up. The shades of grey become more apparent. What we needed V what each of our parents were able to provide in their circumstances becomes more nuanced. We can love both, resemble both, grieve the life we thought we would have with both, forgive both (for whatever they did, big and small) given the help, space and time to do so.

I don’t think it’s very likely that most children that have been abandoned by their father simply grow up and forgive!

Not in my own experience or anyone I have worked with. It takes years to recover and gain enough traction to function fully, decades to recover self esteem and confidence and to stop blaming themselves for the loss of the unconditional love they should have had, and some children simply never recover fully. The wounds run very deep. If they are fully supported by the remaining loving parent, extended family, the church, school, community and with professional therapy then their chances increase of a full recovery, in time.

Fathers that abandon their children cause deep scarring and wounding to their children that lasts a life time.

Forgiveness is not something I have witnessed often. Most children move into adulthood and drift into indifference and find other relationships to fill the void. The children get married, move on, have their own children without their fathers usually.
The relationship with the father usually remains non existent or low contact at best, because once this has happened it’s near to impossible to regain the trust required to maintain a meaningful relationship. There has been a significant betrayal and loss that is hard to overcome. Exceptionally it can happen if the father fully accepts responsibility and apologies with sincerity, and strives to rebuild trust but it rarely happens because they are too checked out in the first place.

Mummadeze · 29/08/2023 07:26

Please don’t feel guilty for moving. You have done a really good thing by creating a better environment away from their Dad who sounds awful. I have a DD who is going through terrible problems and nothing has changed significantly for her. It is an age thing I think more than anything. We had the opposite problem with regards to counselling, we accessed lots of free help through charities and local services, but they all said her problems were too severe and that we had to be seen by CAHMS instead. We are now with CAHMS, but there is lots of help available if you look for it if you aren’t receiving CAHMS support. The Lucy Rayner foundation for example will give 6 sessions of free counselling to young people. Off the Record is another resource and near us (SW London) we went to The Well Centre who we could self refer to. Kooth online is also worth looking into. Do a bit of digging re talking therapies for kids. Best of luck.

JenWillsiam · 29/08/2023 07:31

I’m not going to agree you made a mistake here. Unless it was having kids with the cock lodger.

ThreeLocusts · 29/08/2023 08:29

OP I feel your pain. In my case the family is intact, but I have a 13yo with severe MH issues who claims a move 7 years ago 'ruined her life'.

We moved countries and she doesn't like new language, so there are real issues. But I researched the implications of the move beforehand and everywhere tells you 'children are resilient, children adapt'. Except when they don't.... makes you feel like a complete chump, doesn't it.

But really, what you're dealing with now is a developmental crisis probably influenced by paternal rejection, the pandemic, social media, hormones and who knows what else. It's not your fault for moving.

Ask the GP to argue with CAMHS and start looking for affordable alternatives. There is a teenage mental health crisis and girls are most affected. It's hellish, but you are not alone with this.

AlienatedChildGrown · 29/08/2023 09:46

MumGMT · 28/08/2023 18:25

@AlienatedChildGrown

When I talk about doing something, making a change, I’m talking about making significant changes to the ingredients in the soup we expect children of separation to live in. With a lot less emphasis on whose spoon was/is stirring improperly.

What does this mean in practical terms?

Have a think for a minute how much the message about this child’s father seen on this board filters through to her real world.

The feelings this child will pick up from their fathers lack of involvement are mostly as a result of living through the experience, not because she's hearing messages about deadbeats. Humans unfortunately do internalise rejection or perceived rejection and that's due to our humanness, not because we are told stuff by society.

A practical response would be a more accurate representation of the picture we have been able to learn so far.

The outcomes for children living with both their parents include those children being negatively impacted by high levels of parental conflict or low quality parenting. The latter group experience outcomes that are worse than bereaved children and children with separated parents. Their inclusion pulls down the average outcomes for children in “intact families”. We just don’t know if it is to a significant extent, because not all children in high conflict homes are known to social services or other agencies.

But that’s the baseline for children’s outcomes that we have.

Bereaved children have either similar, or slightly worse outcomes in some areas, than children in “intact families”. The data for bereaved children includes those who have lost a parent due to risky behaviour and suicide as well as those who have lost a parent due to accident or illness.

Children with separated parents have worse outcomes than both the above groups. This group includes children suffering both the impact of being kept far too long in a high conflict home AND the impact of parental separation. It also includes the children who were unaware of conflict/unhappiness in the parental relationship and taken by surprise when the split occurred.

I don’t think there is much dispute that children are more harmed by being in an “intact”, but high conflict home than children in any other group.

Nor do I believe many would presume that the death of a parent is no biggie in terms of impact on child’s emotional well being.

While support , intervention, guidance and oversight fall well below adequate levels for children in those groups, there is at least some level of understanding in the general public that these children have experienced an impactful and potentially life altering event, or series of events. Precious few (I hope) would tell a bereaved child they are better off without their deceased parent cos the unalive one was a waste of space and they are gone because they didn’t really love their child enough anyway.

Adults may think it, but on the whole there is an understanding that no matter how poor a parent the deceased might have been, the child has sustained a significant loss and their emotional response to that may not be confined to the short term.

For the last thirty years (at least) the general public has received a somewhat different message about the children of separated parents. There is an understanding that the initial change in the family set up can be distressing for the children. However beyond that initial stage the message is one of children being resilient, and if one or both parents deemed family life unsustainable the children are de facto better off out of their “intact” family. That it is/was for their own good and their grief for the former life and parental bonds that they had can eased by reminding them of that.

Where the separation has led to little to no contact with one parent there is more inclination to undervalue the child’s grief for their loss. There is more inclination from the general public to muse that the children are mourning a mirage. That parent was a waste of space and didn’t really love them anyway.

A willingness as individuals to consider if maybe that’s not the best way to help children cope is a good place to start.

As per your second point. I disagree.

As a child of a single mother in the 80s I was not exclusively impacted by the experience of living in a home headed by a single mother.

I also experienced the shame and devaluation pushed upon me at a time where “single mother” was a euphemism for “feckless parent who doesn’t give a crap about their kid(s)”. I experienced the impotent fury of having my mother reduced to a cartoon villain, in a black and white comic strip with no room for the nuance of reality. I experienced the sense that if this is who I come from I am not made of the right stuff, so what is the point of trying. If I could not be loveable enough for a parent then why should I expect more than exploitation and abuse from the less savoury people in the general public. My sense of worth was deeply and negatively impacted by the social soup I was in.

The stigma was not mine alone. Thankfully there was recognition later on that demonising a group of parents like they were all a carbon copy lump of useless might not be fair on the adults, let alone helpful to the children.

Efforts were made to remind the public that their tone was too one-note. That if they couldn’t curb their distain for the parent, at least recognise the children on the sharp end were being hindered as a result and maybe moderate the opining for the kids’ sake.

The stigma hasn’t been eradicated. But over time the volume turned down on the single note. More chords have been allowed into the song. Perfect it is not. But it is better than it once was.

You cannot convince parents to recognise and prioritise their children’s needs if you distract them into full-time, self-defence mode.

We tried that. It didn’t work. It made things worse.

Mirabai · 29/08/2023 10:36

Not sure what point you’re trying make in your confused and slightly pompous posts @AlienatedChildGrown

You accept that children in homes with conflict have worse outcomes than those without. But then you veer into the personal impact of separation and single motherhood with vignettes from 40 years ago.

There’s plenty of research on the sheer volume of fathers who lose contact with their kids within a few years of family breakdown.

It’s not OP’s fault her ex cba with the kids. She’s doing the best she can in the circumstances.

Acornsoup · 29/08/2023 10:42

Mirabai · 29/08/2023 10:36

Not sure what point you’re trying make in your confused and slightly pompous posts @AlienatedChildGrown

You accept that children in homes with conflict have worse outcomes than those without. But then you veer into the personal impact of separation and single motherhood with vignettes from 40 years ago.

There’s plenty of research on the sheer volume of fathers who lose contact with their kids within a few years of family breakdown.

It’s not OP’s fault her ex cba with the kids. She’s doing the best she can in the circumstances.

Agreed @Mirabai

It's not the time or the place for their debate/agenda. Start your own thread @AlienatedChildGrown

javelinwatcher · 29/08/2023 11:19

fml666 · 28/08/2023 10:33

I'm going to see if I can organise some private therapy for her but it will be a struggle financially.

I've wondered if there's anything else going on for her too. But I really don't think there is. She likes my new DP and they have a good relationship, although she doesn't see much of him.

Look up low-cost therapy in your area OP. There are lots of private therapists who offer low cost sessions for struggling families.

Phineyj · 29/08/2023 11:23

Hi OP, I wrote a long post earlier and lost it.

The absent dad and the house move are no doubt factors with your DD's MH but much more likely that school transition, neurodiversity and puberty are the main triggers.

Hassle the GP politely to hassle CAMHS. You can use Care Opinion to find out where you are on the waiting list. Alternatively, there are Young Minds, Nest, Coram Family etc. Has DD seen a paediatrician? We found out the LA offered some support we didn't know about.

The new school hopefully has a counsellor. Keep in regular touch with the Head of Year/Head of KS3.

Google 'Your local authority name plus local offer' to find local services.

Do not go out of your way to arrange contact with your ex if he doesn't ask for it and there's no formal arrangement.

He is perhaps neurodiverse himself which may explain, if not excuse, issues with adulting.