To think a house guest shouldn’t be parenting your kids?

[evuscha]

We had my DH’s friend staying with us for a few days, she’s single and childless in her early 50’s though claims that she knows everything about kids because she was a nanny when she was young. The whole time she wouldn’t get off my 4yo DD’s case, constantly reprimanding her for every little thing, saying things like “don’t you ever do that again” then saying it to my DH as a funny story later became of “how terrified” my DD looked at her….constantly throwing little digs like “oh you don’t give her time outs” or “oh she gets to pick which songs you listen to in a car?” (we take turns btw sometimes our music sometimes kids songs, apparently that’s appalling 😀) I’m expecting #2 soon so more digs like “oh I thought that was planned/wanted” whenever I said it will probably be tough or something along those lines.

I did speak up and stood up for my DD but none of my comments helped and I feel like it’s DH’s job to put HIS friend in her place? I would certainly be having stern words if my family/friends did that. I also have friends whose kids in my opinion get away with more than my DD but I would never dream of bossing their kids around (beyond the basic keeping everyone safe) in front of them? AIBU?

Oh I definitely wouldn’t leave my child with her! I don’t think she even literally wants to have DD over, she just wanted to express how she had an amazing time with her - when she spent 48 hours implying the opposite!!

I keep going back and forth and wondering if I’m too sensitive but I really don’t think so - it was just a very bizarre unpleasant experience.

My mum is like this. I call it parenting over the top of me because she interferes with what I’m doing. I just parent over the top of her. For example if your DD is being noisy like a normal four year old, not being ridiculous or screaming just a bit loud and is told off, you talk over the friend and make a positive comment about what DD is doing.

She’s a piece of work. She’s pretending that she enjoyed being with your dd so that she can also pretend that she wasn’t horrible to her. She’s rewriting how the visit went. I bet she knows full well how you felt about her behaviour and has decided that the best way forward is to pretend that she didn’t behave that way.

Knowing her, I would assume she really has zero self reflection and that she really thought the visit was fun and nothing wrong with her comments! But it also might be true what you just said.

I'd be very blunt and 'just say it like it is' to give her it in terms she has the subtlety for and respond "lol, terrible idea"

I am very, very tempted and I would! DH being the conflict avoider he is though just wants to ignore that comment and just make excuses for why she can’t stay (“we’re busy/out of town”) next time. But I’m not sure how much better it is to carry on making excuses for another 10 years 🤷‍♀️
I would like to at least tell her in a non-confrontational way that the visit just didn’t go well (seeing that she genuinely saw nothing wrong with it) but I am also still pretty angry so not sure I can even do non-confrontational.

@evuscha that new message is proper weird.

I have similarly weird family in so far as they recall events where they have behaved appallingly in completely the opposite way.

I think on some level they DO know that they are in the wrong. I say this because my own mother would tell everyone all the wonderful things she was doing to help me and support me when I was in an abusive relationship

the truth was that she’d ignore me for weeks, she’s communicate with my exp and keep in touch with them, more so after the abuse came to light. The highlight of this was that she and my sister called Woman’s Aid to ask for help for themselves after I’d been hit once. They got short shrift and we’re actually complaining to me about it.

so sorry, long story short, but I think she’s rewriting history so that YOUR version of events never gets any attention at all.

are you mates with anyone on that group? I’d be chatting with them tbh, and laugh about this woman’s front

people like your visitor rely on you being far too nice and polite than to (a) call her out or (b) air dirty laundry

I bet she’s been making odd comments before, but you’ve not noticed them.

for now, I’d advise that you/dh studiously ignore that message and not even reply to anything in it that’s legitimate and if there are any back channels I’d let slip that you’re shocked at her recollection of events and say that you wouldn’t have her back again as it was clear that she hated kids.

cat…. Pigeons 😂

As for next time, dh can make the excuse that you are not available.

keep that stance as long as need be and if there’s any pushback then let her have it! Just say to her that you’re “telling it how it is” and that the way she behaved in your home, they way she spoke to you/your dd and undermined you and your husband’s parenting was totally and utterly unacceptable, so IF she’s in the area she can meet with DH somewhere else but you won’t host her in your home.

People like her only behave like that because people let her.

OP, I reckon @FictionalCharacter has it.
She probably clocked your expression and knows bloody well that she has over stepped and is in damage control mode.

Also @MzHz has nailed it too.

If you don't feel like saying anything like "hardly🙄, you never stopped criticising the poor little thing", then simply say nothing.

But as @MzHz suggests YOU should "say it like it is" and your husband can see her alone.

I must say I wouldn't be one bit impressed with your husband being so happy to ignore his child being bullied by his friend, and then too scared to remark on it at all.

Scared, frightened of their own shadow men, are so unattractive and IMO not to be relied upon.

They never have ANYONES back other than their own.

Children so need parents to have their back and protect them.

How dare she presume to criticise your child....for a whole weekend!

You keep doubting yourself when you shouldn't.

That woman's behaviour was appallingly rude to you and your little girl, yet your husband is happy to ignore it and carry on.

Respect is so IMO in a relationship and I would be losing it very fast for him.

His priorities are very strange.

Choosing a women friend over his own child?

So unattractive.

"I didn't appreciate how you acted and the things you said to DD. You may think it's funny to jeer DH but I simply won't accept that behaviour towards my child or myself. "Having DD for a few days" is absolutely out of the question."

The impolite version of that is "get t'fuck you rude old bag, not over my dead body would I allow you breathe the same air as DD."

Block her and remove yourself from the group chat.

Your DH isn't going to stand up for you or for your child and there is no reason to tolerate this outrageously rude houseguest.

@billy1966 as always makes a very good point. I’d be REALLY unimpressed with my H if he still thought it acceptable to maintain a friendship with her after this latest visit

Difficult or not possible for him to confront etc etc, fair enough, it isn’t always easy to speak up at the time but if he weren’t planning to take a massive step back/away and phase her out I’d be massively disappointed in him.

@MzHz I too had a family member who would "remember" things differently. They'd whinge, sulk, grump and attention-seek through every visit and outing, try to change plans halfway through, and do a great job of looking like they wished they were anywhere else. Afterwards they'd gush about what a lovely day it had been and how much they'd enjoyed it! Ignoring the fact that they had ruined the day for everyone else.

@evuscha you're stuck if you won't change your own behaviour. You're a people pleaser and your DH is a conflict avoider. So you're both vulnerable to having people walk all over you. But you're parents, and you should be protecting your young child, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable. You don't have to have a big argument, just politely tell her no to future visits, and if she asks why, say it wasn't good for your child to be constantly criticised and scolded. So DH can see her alone.

Children remember times when their feelings were hurt. Your DD will remember that lady that you and your DH seemed to like and welcome, but who did nothing but snap at her and reject her. She'll feel that you found her less important than the visitor. That's how I feel about similar incidents in my childhood and I'm over 60 now!

Or her memory could be "there was that lady who was horrible to me, so mum and dad put a stop to her visits". That would be much better for her self esteem. And surely you don't want her growing up to be a people pleaser.

You would simply have to endure the discomfort of a slightly awkward phone or text conversation. That's all. Surely it would be worth it?

I had a singular gutsful of a friend who also presumed to backseat parent my kids - or try to. I just said to her, 'yup, I was a perfect parent with perfect kids too. Then I actually had them. If you want to parent kids, you squit 'em out, you're not practising on mine!'

To their credit, they cracked up laughing, and we all cracked on. . .

Has your DH been in contact with her and said something? And this is her response... to re write the script? to prove to DH that she adores DD and that you are actually making a fuss about nothing? (further undermining you with your DH) Why, actually she'd love to spend more one on one time with DD so OP must be completely over reacting?

I think its good that you wrote this thread as it's made you clear on what she did and didn't say. She can say what she likes about her behaviour, you were there and you witnessed it.

She actually reminds me of a horrible relatively distant relation we had visit when I was growing up. Thought he was smarter than everyone else and sooooo amusing. All his comments were gold. Should have been a standup.

Except all his comments were jeering, sneering and usually shit. And I also notice that people like him pick on the youngest. Every time, because its so much easier to pretend that you are cleverer than a young child and make "witty" remarks about everything they say, which establishes them as the superior person of the group.
He moved on from me to my nieces and nephews. If they needed to wipe their noses or if they had stumbled, even if the poor things were happily playing and focusing on a toy with great concentration - all if it was fodder for his comedy stylings.
Your DD will thank you for not putting up with this harpy.

Thank you so much everyone for your latest extremely helpful comments. I am reading and taking on board all of them! I know my thread has been all over the place and I can’t believe a week later I am still stressing about it, but it is really helping me to stay focused on what’s important (protecting DD) and figure out the next steps.

Just to clarify, the group chat was just with her, me and DH, no other people involved. I don’t think she was in touch with DH separately, if anything she talks to me more than she talks to DH these days. I thought we had a good relationship with her and she really liked seeing us as a family which makes her last behavior really bizarre - why risk throwing away that friendship over a bit of an ego boost? But we are both people pleasers and as far as she knows she got away and didn’t get a lot of pushback, so that’s probably why. “People like her only behave like that because people let her.” is very true.

DH has a long history of avoiding conflict (not even to stand up for himself) and while I feel like he doesn’t necessarily care if he never sees her again (he would be happy making excuses each time and he probably wouldn’t even care about seeing her just the 2 of them, if anything, I was usually the one sorting out plans with her), he just doesn’t want to go into that confrontation. I personally think it’s weird to make the “we’re busy” excuses for years…and besides, she probably will be making an effort to meet the new baby so will be responding with “I can come whenever it suits you guys”…and then years down the line she asks what’s wrong and we awkwardly say “well that one weekend 5 years ago you were mean to DD”? I would much rather just tell her now.

All I know is that no I don’t believe DH would properly back us up if we meet her again, unfortunately, he would probably try very politely with some neutral jokey comments and that would be it. I also agree with the PP saying that they remember similar childhood incidents many years later, I too remember the way that made me feel when a friend/family member was mean to me and my parents didn’t stand up for me. So I am absolutely certain I don’t want her around DD again.

Like I said, I don’t believe DH has told her anything. However, funny you say that, I did get that exact reaction from DH after her message: “See, she likes DD, it’s just her ways, she didn’t mean anything bad”. So she’s definitely still succeeding with having DH on board.

I told DH though that noone is obligated to tolerate “her ways”, not even in a jokey way, which was largely what it was - also exactly like you described your relative. Like it was funny to scold DD and show her her place and making comments like “I’m not holding your sticky hands” or “I wasn’t listening to your song” in some sort of a comedy act. As a part of her “I’m too cool for kids, they’re annoying” persona.

I don’t even think she genuinely thought DD was bad or we’re shit parents. If DD was the opposite of herself, she would be getting digs at how shy/quiet/too mellow she is (like DH is getting from her). I don’t even know if she realizes that her behavior can come across as really rude and toxic! Though the overly loving message of how amazing DD is does suggest some damage control from her side.

@evuscha You keep saying that you and dh are people pleasers, as though that’s your fate for ever. You don’t have to be. You can break this habit just like any other. The first time you stand up to someone will be a revelation. Then you’ll find it easier. And you’ll be able to teach your daughter to stand up for herself too.
Be kind and helpful to others, sure, that’s a good thing. Allowing yourself to be taken advantage of and letting people treat you like dirt is not.

it’s just her ways
Don’t let him get away with making this excuse for her. That phrase is very often used when people know that someone’s behaviour is unacceptable but they can’t or won’t do anything about it.
Imagine someone behaving badly or doing something incorrect in the workplace - “it’s just her ways” would absolutely not be tolerated as an excuse.

I agree! I can’t change DH unless he wants to (and sadly despite respecting my wish to not see her again, he still doesn’t really even agree with me that she was in the wrong)…but I certainly do want to change myself. The older I get the less patience I have for this kind of people, so that’s good. And most importantly I don’t want DD to grow up a people pleaser too which unfortunately I contributed to that weekend. In my defense it took me by surprise - reacting in the right moment (rather than just knowing what to say “after”) is something I need to work on.

”It’s just her way”. Ok but you don’t have to tolerate it,neither does your DD.
This is a poor excuse trotted out to justify somebody’s poor behaviour.

To hell with people pleasing. Sometimes you have to be confrontional,that’s how you get people to back off.

I can stand a lot of crap but the minute you start on my kids I’ll give it to you tenfold.

Your DD is your priority. DH should be told his fate. Your house is your DD safe place and comfort zone,nobody should wreck it for her including some stranger and parent with no backbone.

I really do sympathise. I have a people pleasing dh. It can be difficult. However I don’t think he’s as bad as yours, because he wouldn’t have tolerated someone being like that to one of our kids. At the very least, he would have said no more visits.
In your shoes I’d do exactly what you’re planning.
”DH, we are not seeing Friend with dd again. If she really does like children/dd she should act like she does, instead of being sharp, critical and hurtful. I’m not prepared to let her do that to dd whatever you say. I’m not letting Friend upset dd just because she’s your friend”.
Have you ever explored DH’s people pleasing and conflict avoidance with him? He might not realise how bad he is. As you say he might not want to change himself, but assertiveness gets easier with age and maturity for some people. And he might come round to feeling like you do - you recognise this trait in yourself, and as a parent you want to deal with it, so that you can stand up for dd when you need to and be a model for her.

He did agree to no more visits from her, and he insists he understands my point, but that’s ultimately to please me and avoid arguments with me I think, and not because he genuinely recognizes what she did was bad and hurtful. He is so used to getting and tolerating mean “jokey” comments from her towards him, that he doesn’t understand that to someone else let alone a child those just aren’t okay!

Right now I haven’t responded to her message at all, and he did respond in a neutral way to other points but ignored the DD bit.

My worry is, if I leave it ignored, then DH just hopes I will forget about it and next time she asks to come (could be in a year) I will just say yes. He just wants to avoid that drama and make it go away as usual.

He’s not a bad person at all and generally puts us first always. But confidence, self esteem, being able to stand up to someone is something he’s really lacking. (and I’m bad at it too but nowhere near this bad, I eventually do explode)

And I really don’t know why DH is like that. He has zero reason to be, his family is lovely, in-laws are his biggest fans and extremely supportive, he didn’t have any abusive relationships…

For myself, I absolutely know why I am like that. My upbringing was more along the lines of “be seen, not heard”, “don’t argue”, “girls should always be nice”, and I didn’t have much of a say in things growing up.

Well @evuscha if the group chat is just you and dh and you do most of the correspondence generally there isn’t anything stopping you from sending a reply that acknowledges the surprise in her text given her clear stance whilst in your home.

be blunt, what have you personally got to lose?

Oh yeah, plus noone can force me to see her again really, so I am overthinking this a bit. At this point it’s just about trying to get DH to finally open his eyes and freaking see my point, which he still doesn’t and it’s very annoying!