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Flexible working revoked - help!!

410 replies

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 05/08/2023 07:59

Looking for a sounding board for a problem I'm having at work. Not sure what to do really...

So, I had a baby and returned after a 9 month maternity leave, but when my son was 5 months old, I discussed my return to work with my boss (male).

(I work as a PA for two people who own and run the company)

I asked to return to work 5 days a week, but to work 2 days from home and also if I could leave at 4.30pm instead of my contracted finish of 5pm in order to pick up my son from nursery. I was told that none of this was a problem and that I didn't need to be in when my boss wasn't in (he also worked 3 days a week in the office).

So I returned to work with this set up and did absolutely everything to make this work, which included working through lunch breaks and responding to emails from 6am-10pm 7 days a week.

After 8 months of this being in place, I was told (in the middle of the office, not privately) that they were going to need to ask me to return to the office 4 days a week as they couldn't give me something they weren't giving to the rest of the staff. I was assured that this had nothing to do with my performance as they know I'm working all the time, but purely to do with what other people in the office are allowed.

I had many discussions with them about the impact of this on me, and that it would cost me almost an extra £400 in childcare costs per month, to which I was told effectively that if I can't afford to have kids, I shouldn't have them.

At this point, two other women were having their working from home revoked, but they had had it for 11 and 14 years, and their children were in secondary school by this point.

In the discussions for this, my boss (female) had suggested to me that on the extra day I was being asked to work in the office, I could leave early. This was purely her idea and was even suggesting around lunchtime.

After all my protests, I was told they would get back to me...however 5 months later nobody had. As this was being requested to start in September, I approached my boss (female) last week to discuss it before my holiday, and her holiday. She seemed surprised, but thankful that I had put the wheels in motion and was making this happening and agreed that it had kind of been forgotten about (not by me, I can assure you!). When I then raised her idea of leaving early on the extra day in the office, she didn't seem to recall this conversation and actually seemed quite annoyed by it, asking "how early?". I suggested 3.30pm instead of 4.30pm, and as I could see that this request wasn't going down well, I suggested it be for the first 3 weeks to help my son settle in (as this also coincides with him moving to preschool).

She then said that we need to review my leaving at 4.30pm on other days, and would I be willing to leave at 5pm (my contracted time) instead. I said that it wasn't a case of being willing, but that if I left at that time, I wouldn't be able to make it to the nursery before they shut. She seemed in disbelief that it would take me that long to get home, but I pointed out that whilst Google might suggest it is an hour, that is if I hit all my connections and there is no traffic. In practice, this is never the case, and it it always takes me around 1 hour 20 mins.

Her reasoning for asking me to leave at 5pm was again, for parity across the office, but also in case her or my other boss need something urgent between 4.30-5pm. Whilst I understand this, in practice I don't think this is actually the case, as all day I am asked for very little and I am the proactive one asking if they need things all the time. I can't believe that something urgent would be regularly happening in the last 30 mins of the day.

She also said that if they finish a meeting after 4.30pm and I am gone, they might need something, and it's not fair on other members of staff as it puts more pressure on them. Whilst this is true, I have been back through the diaries and in the 201 days I have worked back in the office, they have had meetings that have gone beyond 4.30pm 18 times. Also, they have never had someone come to the office for a meeting that starts after 4.30pm.

Therefore I feel that this isn't a reflection of what actually happens. I can't believe that they ask for very little all day, but in that last 30 mins something urgent comes up. She also acknowledged that I am on email my whole journey home, but it's if something happens that I am needed in person. She accepted the fact I work through my lunch, and from early morning until late evening on emails, but that it was not about total hours worked.

For context, my company are very anti flexible working. I joined 3 days before lockdown in 2020, and went on maternity leave in July 2021, so had spent a massive amount of my employment working from home. They are on a drive to get people back to the office and don't want anyone working from home. They recently conducted a staff survey, and in that almost every member of the office requested more flexibility with working from home. Therefore they are begrudgingly reviewing it, but it seems they are missing the point that flexible working doesn't have to be the exact same conditions for everyone and that it is a case by case scenario.

I am unsure as to whether I am being unreasonable, or if not, how hard to push on this - especially given that I was told by my boss (male) that he asked if he could get rid of me when I told him I was pregnant!!

We are a small team and don't have an official HR department. We recently just got a freelance HR person in, but I'm unsure as to how much I trust them yet. Also, in my capacity as a PA I work very closely with my bosses and maintaining a good relationship is important. I'm not trying to rock the boat or get special privileges, but it's hard to make things work when the agreement keeps changing. I returned to work based on certain conditions and I set my life up around them.

Any advice would be so gratefully received as it is keeping me up at night!

Thank you!

OP posts:
HTruffle · 05/08/2023 08:03

Personally I’d be looking for something else, it appears that they are not at all grateful for all the extra time you’ve put in and the flexibility you’ve already shown. If you have to stay there until 5 and cannot get to your nursery on time then that’s surely a dealbreaker anyway.

nonheme · 05/08/2023 08:03

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Lapflop · 05/08/2023 08:04

I can see why there's less flexibility in a PA role to be honest than in others where you have to do x by y date but can largely manage your workload. Was your flexible working request formalised? Did you go through the process or just ask them? If not then you can submit one and they have to give good reasons for not approving, to be honest though I can see why given your job role your presence in office and working hours are needed as they're proposing.

Personally I'd look for another job that is closer, more flexible and that fits around your change in circumstances.

parliamoglesga · 05/08/2023 08:05

Urghhhhhhhhhhh I have no advice because I eventually left an employer who was utterly awful at flexible working.

Im not sure why but the bit that irked me the most was them saying to you that they might need you after a meeting that ends at 4:30.
it would surely keep til the next morning!!!

These folk are wankers OP.

MojoMoon · 05/08/2023 08:06

Honestly - start looking for a new job.

There is no right to flexible working, just the right to ask and it is easy for the company to say no.

Even if they agreed something now, clearly they would not be doing it with enthusiasm and so you would likely find it chipped away.

Small businesses and working with the owners means it is their fiefdom and what they want goes.

It doesn't matter that there isn't an HR department - HR exists to protect the company not the employees.

Time to look for other work with less commute

nonheme · 05/08/2023 08:08

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Marwoodsbigbreak · 05/08/2023 08:08

Did you complete a statutory Flexible Working Request? If so, that’s a permanent contractual change and they can’t just renege on it like this.

It sounds more like an informal agreement. Is that correct?

If so, I would hand in my notice and get a more flexible job where you can wfh more. Fuck em.

magicalkitty · 05/08/2023 08:09

Honestly, get another job.

They wont change their attitude, and if you manage to get any flexibility you will be resented by other members of staff who don't have it.

There are plenty of jobs out there that offer flexibility to attract talent.

Zanatdy · 05/08/2023 08:09

Why will it cost you an extra £400 a month in childcare? I agree in looking for something more flexible as a PA role is always going to be less flexible as they may need you at short notice etc. Put your flexible working request in writing if you haven’t already done so, and they will need to reply in writing too to refuse it.

Greenwitchhorse · 05/08/2023 08:09

I would speak to ACAS about this.

Do you have it in writing that your request for flexible working was agreed? did they update your contract?

There is also an issue that they seem to be doing something which is disproportionally targeting/affecting female staff and therefore there could be a discriminatory angle as well.

''I was told by my boss (male) that he asked if he could get rid of me when I told him I was pregnant!!'' again this is another serious sign that your organisation has some serious issues with how they deal with women...

Sugarfree23 · 05/08/2023 08:10

I'd look elsewhere.
But are you trying to look after a toddler while WFH? I suspect they are trying to put an end to that.

ShadowPuppets · 05/08/2023 08:10

Agree with the others - new job.

I work 4 days and alternate between 3 and 2 days in the office each week. In exchange for that I’m working most evenings and my salary is quite far under the market rate (even before you pro rata it). The reason I stay is 1) I love my colleagues and the role and 2) the flexibility.

If the flexibility were revoked though, I’d be out of the door. They know it, I know it, and that’s why I’m fairly comfortable that it’s a permanent arrangement - at least until they don’t want me any more. If they changed my flexible working arrangements I’d assume it was because they weren’t bothered about me staying, so it wouldn’t be worth me trying to make it trying to work.

Cantstaystuckforever · 05/08/2023 08:11

Is it costing £400 extra a month because you didn't have paid childcare on those days, or to allow for later pickup?

The 4.30 thing seems very annoying, but if you've been 'working' while looking after a child, that's not ok for colleagues or the business.

electriclight · 05/08/2023 08:11

They do have to consider reasonable requests to work flexibly so your requests and their responses should be in writing and properly outlined and addressed (not lots of piecemeal conversations with different people).

Speak to ACAS for advice.

I doubt there is much that can be done about being recalled to the office as they will be able to make a case for this, but your request for a regular early finish whilst making the time up elsewhere seems reasonable to me. If they are very fixed on you adhering go your contract, can't they amend your contract/salary accordingly?

greenteaandmarshmallows · 05/08/2023 08:12

Were your flexible hours finalised in a change to your contract? Was the request done as a formal request for flexible working?

Madcatwoman123 · 05/08/2023 08:12

I am a HR professional and I would echo the PP who asked if you had submitted a formal flexible working request and if you haven't, to do that now. This all sounds like informal conversations and you need this to have a formal footing in the legislation. This will then trigger them to have to discuss it with their HR consultant if they haven't already.

They only have 8 fair reasons for refusal under law, although like anything these can be quite subjective and the size of your company is important. However, I have had similar requests to yours in my career and employers have really struggled to refuse as they couldn't evidence their concerns in line with the refusal reasons. Your employers need to understand that just because no one else has the arrangement doesn't mean you can't under flexible working. They could also accept yours and refuse others in the future if they can evidence impact. Personally, even as a PA I don't think they are being reasonable.

I would recommend getting this onto a formal footing so they have to follow the legal timescales, really read up on the legislation but also look at other roles as well.

greenteaandmarshmallows · 05/08/2023 08:14

Also why will it cost you £400 more to be in the office? Are you using some sort of wrap around care to pick your child up from nursery?

Landlubber2019 · 05/08/2023 08:15

What are your contracted hours and how will the extra childcare cost £400 pcm?

Have you had your children in a supervised setting whilst WFH?

When I had my children I changed career and went part time as I recognised that my old job wasn't conducive to a good work life balance and I urge you to look for something without a 2hr 40 min commute.

magicalkitty · 05/08/2023 08:15

greenteaandmarshmallows · 05/08/2023 08:14

Also why will it cost you £400 more to be in the office? Are you using some sort of wrap around care to pick your child up from nursery?

Hmm I wondered this.

OP, are you looking after your child during any of the wfh days, and therefore not paying for nursery on those days?

LolaSmiles · 05/08/2023 08:16

I had many discussions with them about the impact of this on me, and that it would cost me almost an extra £400 in childcare costs per month, to which I was told effectively that if I can't afford to have kids, I shouldn't have them
They're out of order for the comments about not affording childcare, but equally if you going in the office two days a week is costing you £400 extra that sounds like you've not had childcare in place whilst working.
Most people I know with WFH have an expectation that WFH staff have childcare, not that they're using WFH to so half a job at work whilst they look after their children.

Molehillminnie · 05/08/2023 08:16

This has unfair dismissal and tribunal written all over it. Contact pregnant then screwed, OP.

magicalkitty · 05/08/2023 08:17

Molehillminnie · 05/08/2023 08:16

This has unfair dismissal and tribunal written all over it. Contact pregnant then screwed, OP.

It really doesn't. Employers have to consider flexible working requests but they don't have to grant it.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/08/2023 08:18

I'm also curious about the £400. That seems a huge sum if it just covers the extra commuting time. Can you clarify?

SpainToday · 05/08/2023 08:19

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

I’m a PA to a senior person in a large organisation. Even pre COVID, he was out and about a lot, so we maintained contact via email and phone. During lockdown obviously I never saw him at all, but we had daily teams calls, so that worked fine. We are now on a hybrid working pattern (2 days in the office, 3 at home) and even if our days don’t align, it still works out fine due to teams, email and phone.

In 2023 your PA doesn’t have to be perched outside your office, that’s such an old fashioned practice.

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