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Flexible working revoked - help!!

410 replies

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 05/08/2023 07:59

Looking for a sounding board for a problem I'm having at work. Not sure what to do really...

So, I had a baby and returned after a 9 month maternity leave, but when my son was 5 months old, I discussed my return to work with my boss (male).

(I work as a PA for two people who own and run the company)

I asked to return to work 5 days a week, but to work 2 days from home and also if I could leave at 4.30pm instead of my contracted finish of 5pm in order to pick up my son from nursery. I was told that none of this was a problem and that I didn't need to be in when my boss wasn't in (he also worked 3 days a week in the office).

So I returned to work with this set up and did absolutely everything to make this work, which included working through lunch breaks and responding to emails from 6am-10pm 7 days a week.

After 8 months of this being in place, I was told (in the middle of the office, not privately) that they were going to need to ask me to return to the office 4 days a week as they couldn't give me something they weren't giving to the rest of the staff. I was assured that this had nothing to do with my performance as they know I'm working all the time, but purely to do with what other people in the office are allowed.

I had many discussions with them about the impact of this on me, and that it would cost me almost an extra £400 in childcare costs per month, to which I was told effectively that if I can't afford to have kids, I shouldn't have them.

At this point, two other women were having their working from home revoked, but they had had it for 11 and 14 years, and their children were in secondary school by this point.

In the discussions for this, my boss (female) had suggested to me that on the extra day I was being asked to work in the office, I could leave early. This was purely her idea and was even suggesting around lunchtime.

After all my protests, I was told they would get back to me...however 5 months later nobody had. As this was being requested to start in September, I approached my boss (female) last week to discuss it before my holiday, and her holiday. She seemed surprised, but thankful that I had put the wheels in motion and was making this happening and agreed that it had kind of been forgotten about (not by me, I can assure you!). When I then raised her idea of leaving early on the extra day in the office, she didn't seem to recall this conversation and actually seemed quite annoyed by it, asking "how early?". I suggested 3.30pm instead of 4.30pm, and as I could see that this request wasn't going down well, I suggested it be for the first 3 weeks to help my son settle in (as this also coincides with him moving to preschool).

She then said that we need to review my leaving at 4.30pm on other days, and would I be willing to leave at 5pm (my contracted time) instead. I said that it wasn't a case of being willing, but that if I left at that time, I wouldn't be able to make it to the nursery before they shut. She seemed in disbelief that it would take me that long to get home, but I pointed out that whilst Google might suggest it is an hour, that is if I hit all my connections and there is no traffic. In practice, this is never the case, and it it always takes me around 1 hour 20 mins.

Her reasoning for asking me to leave at 5pm was again, for parity across the office, but also in case her or my other boss need something urgent between 4.30-5pm. Whilst I understand this, in practice I don't think this is actually the case, as all day I am asked for very little and I am the proactive one asking if they need things all the time. I can't believe that something urgent would be regularly happening in the last 30 mins of the day.

She also said that if they finish a meeting after 4.30pm and I am gone, they might need something, and it's not fair on other members of staff as it puts more pressure on them. Whilst this is true, I have been back through the diaries and in the 201 days I have worked back in the office, they have had meetings that have gone beyond 4.30pm 18 times. Also, they have never had someone come to the office for a meeting that starts after 4.30pm.

Therefore I feel that this isn't a reflection of what actually happens. I can't believe that they ask for very little all day, but in that last 30 mins something urgent comes up. She also acknowledged that I am on email my whole journey home, but it's if something happens that I am needed in person. She accepted the fact I work through my lunch, and from early morning until late evening on emails, but that it was not about total hours worked.

For context, my company are very anti flexible working. I joined 3 days before lockdown in 2020, and went on maternity leave in July 2021, so had spent a massive amount of my employment working from home. They are on a drive to get people back to the office and don't want anyone working from home. They recently conducted a staff survey, and in that almost every member of the office requested more flexibility with working from home. Therefore they are begrudgingly reviewing it, but it seems they are missing the point that flexible working doesn't have to be the exact same conditions for everyone and that it is a case by case scenario.

I am unsure as to whether I am being unreasonable, or if not, how hard to push on this - especially given that I was told by my boss (male) that he asked if he could get rid of me when I told him I was pregnant!!

We are a small team and don't have an official HR department. We recently just got a freelance HR person in, but I'm unsure as to how much I trust them yet. Also, in my capacity as a PA I work very closely with my bosses and maintaining a good relationship is important. I'm not trying to rock the boat or get special privileges, but it's hard to make things work when the agreement keeps changing. I returned to work based on certain conditions and I set my life up around them.

Any advice would be so gratefully received as it is keeping me up at night!

Thank you!

OP posts:
DisquietintheRanks · 05/08/2023 09:34

Mamansparkles · 05/08/2023 09:00

I read it that her child is in nursery on WFH days, but it is the hour and a half commute each way (3 hours a day) that she saves - and finishing at 4.30 because she works through her lunchbreak and later in the evening is perfectly reasonable in the vast vast majority of jobs.
I don't think she has said she is trying to look after the baby during the working day.
A lot of nurseries charge a premium for early mornings and lates so 9 hours a week of those could easily cost £400 a month.

^^This but also, not all jobs can be done wfh or flexibly. If you are supposed to cover meetings and meetings routinely run til 5pm then you leaving at 4.30pm isn't going to work.

All this boils down to the fact that you need a new job that is a better match to your life.

Savoury · 05/08/2023 09:35

GoingGoingUp · 05/08/2023 09:28

Or, it’s an extra nursery day per week. Seeing as she works from home two days a week and will need to be in the office an extra day, it suggests she doesn’t send her child on those days.

That’s how I read it.
We don’t know for sure who looks after the baby when the OP is WFH, whether she’s paid for the extra half hour a day and whether additional hours are the norm in her business/office.
Or indeed if there is a partner who should pick up 50% of the time.

Lolacat1234 · 05/08/2023 09:35

This is really disappointing. You should look for something else. I work for a global company and they used lockdown and Covid to implement a new way of working, sold off 3 of the buildings in my town that they owned and used the money to fully upgrade the two remaining buildings and ask that full time people work 2 days in office a week. The morale amongst my colleagues has soared and people are so much happier. They have spent a lot of time and investment in creating a new mindset and it's quite sad to see some companies trying to cling to the past and not embrace something that works so well for them and their employees if done well. You haven't stated what industry you are in which might have an impact in whether people need to be present or not, so that might have a bearing on what your managers decide, but honestly if it's just corporate private sector work it's probably just old fashioned management! You should look for a more forward thinking company. Presence at the office is important especially if you are part of a team but we make sure we all come in on certain days and have our meetings on certain days and make sure when we are in office it's to collaborate and wfh days are for those days when you need to get your head down and be productive. It works so well if done right x

Swanswimming · 05/08/2023 09:35

Blondebutnotlegally · 05/08/2023 09:25

No one said she's wfh with a toddler! Christ almighty

... and that is why they are saying IF she cares for her child while working from home...

Rotterdam · 05/08/2023 09:36

I threatened to sue my employer when they revoked my M-F and tried to get me to work a shift pattern over 7 days when I came back from maternity.

Frankly your bosses are absolute cunts and I would be looking for another job. Good PAs are hard to come by and I would be looking for another job. Have you considered the civil service? Your skills are very transferable and in my dept you can basically pick your hours for many jobs.

Duckduckie · 05/08/2023 09:38

They sound awful, how is anything ever that important in 30mins it couldn’t be left till the following morning? They sound like they have a self inflated ego.

Ifs screaming tribunal to me and I think you would win. Please start documenting all times / dates tats things have been said incase they try to fire you.

Start looking for a new role 100%

muppetmayhem · 05/08/2023 09:39

This isn’t a recruitment business is it? In London?

Lolacat1234 · 05/08/2023 09:41

Just to add as well I am a PA so I understand the expectation that you should be available at all times but agree with a PP who said the mindset that a PA needs to be perched outside the door at all times is silly and outdated! And honestly I can't think of a request that would come through after a 4:30pm meeting that couldn't wait until the next morning!

greenteaandmarshmallows · 05/08/2023 09:42

Duckduckie · 05/08/2023 09:38

They sound awful, how is anything ever that important in 30mins it couldn’t be left till the following morning? They sound like they have a self inflated ego.

Ifs screaming tribunal to me and I think you would win. Please start documenting all times / dates tats things have been said incase they try to fire you.

Start looking for a new role 100%

Which aspects in particular out of interest?

TitoMojito · 05/08/2023 09:42

I worked as a PA and yeah, they do want you to be around the entire working day in case they need something. That's pretty standard. Tbh they would've liked me to be there before and after the working day but they couldn't enforce that. But I'm not surprised they want you in the office. And unfortunately lots of people have children whose school times don’t line up with work times. You just have to find a way to make it work, or find a new job where the hours fit. I think you're fighting a losing battle trying to get your bosses to allow you to work to your own schedule.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/08/2023 09:43

Duckduckie · 05/08/2023 09:38

They sound awful, how is anything ever that important in 30mins it couldn’t be left till the following morning? They sound like they have a self inflated ego.

Ifs screaming tribunal to me and I think you would win. Please start documenting all times / dates tats things have been said incase they try to fire you.

Start looking for a new role 100%

I can think of plenty of things that might arise at the end of a working day that might need dealing with there and then. Surely it depends on the sector and the type of work that you deal with.

Not saying that the OP's boss is or isn't being unreasonable on this. Merely that, in some workplaces, being available until the end of the working day might be important.

GotMooMilk · 05/08/2023 09:44

Working 1 hour and 20 away isn’t really practical anyway and I’d be looking for something else. What if DH is away and the child is sick that’s a long time to get there!

afishcalledbreanda · 05/08/2023 09:45

I wonder if it's dawned on your employer that you're combining working from home with looking after your children and, as you say they rarely make calls on you (all day I am asked for very little and I am the proactive one asking if they need things all the time) they've realised that you aren't being fully utilised at home.

No sensible employer would want to continue this arrangement and I think the realisation that a lot of people have been doing this is what's lead to the recall to the office.

In your shoes I'd proceed with a formal request to work from home in order to make it official and documented, but I'd also be looking for a more flexible job much closer to home because even when your children are in school you're going to be facing the issue of after-school care for years. And if you do get another remote-working job, make sure the children are in childcare on days you work from home.

Mamansparkles · 05/08/2023 09:48

greenteaandmarshmallows · 05/08/2023 09:24

Hang on. If this isn't contracted are you being paid for more hours than you work?

No, because she doesnt take a lunch break, logs back on in the evening and finishes half an hour early in exchange. So she is doing all her hours and more.
There is no issue with the number of hours she is doing.

mariiiaa · 05/08/2023 09:48

Work to live
Don't live to work.

They don't appreciate you and your efforts. So fuck em.

Tell them you will do what they are forcing on you because you have no choice, but you will be looking for work elsewhere and leaving as soon as you find something that fits in with your life. It's not like they refused, they agreed then backtracked because of how it looks to other people? Twats.

Life and family setups have changed so much over the last 30-40 years.

If an employer can't appreciate that not everyone can juggle and afford everything just to be sat in an office from 9-5 mon-fri that's their problem.

Createausername1970 · 05/08/2023 09:48

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

I do. We have a face to face catch up once a week. The rest of the time he is either out of the office at meetings, seeing clients or working from home. So I have moved from mainly being office based to mainly being home based. Makes no difference where either of us are, we still access all the same information by logging in to company systems and using Google to save letters or other documents so we can both access what each other has done.

It also means I blend my hours around my home life. It can be done if there is willing and give and take on both sides.

magicalkitty · 05/08/2023 09:50

Employers have to ensure employees take a lunch break if they work over 6 hours a day. If she has an hour lunch break and only takes 30 mins that's fine, but it's not okay to not take a break at all.

Mamansparkles · 05/08/2023 09:51

Also if she works from home she can presumably work til 5 because she can still get to nursery for pick up without needing to leave at 4.30.

OP it sounds like you are asking for a really basic and really easily done flexible working arrangement. Your bosses dont want to do it so their loss - look for another job. Most PA jobs would be fine with what you are asking and you could cut the commute too.

Tryingtokeepcalmandcarryon · 05/08/2023 09:52

As per others I don’t understand why it will cost you £400 more a month? If you could provide more clarity on the childcare situation it would help others to share specific advice :)

afishcalledbreanda · 05/08/2023 09:52

They sound awful, how is anything ever that important in 30mins it couldn’t be left till the following morning? They sound like they have a self inflated ego.

In my industry it was the stuff that occurred at the end of the day (a job not being completed or needing last-minute revisions before a deadline) that really mattered. Sometimes a random 4pm phone call or meeting would end with a client wanting to change something just as a project was about to be signed off and the whole team would have to work through the night to sort it out. In my husband's business the schedule for the next day depends on the state of play at the end of the current day. If there have been hold-ups, they've come across an unexpected problem or a delivery has been late, that can involve cancelling or adapting everything for the next day. Not all jobs are routine.

Yalta · 05/08/2023 09:54

Echo what others are saying about finding another job

I do actually understand why there would be an extra £400 per month cost in going into the office

Wrap around care isn’t exactly cheap.
Just going by what friend charges £12 per hour per child but she only deals with school age children. I think someone dealing with nursery children would be more. That alone is an extra £240 per month

Then there are commuting costs
Being in the office the other 2 days, would be 2 x train station parking 2 x train ticket this could be another £20 per day, £40 per week

I wonder whether hiring the childminder and working non flexibly for a few months might change their minds over what non flexible working looks like.

Take your lunch break, block all work related phone calls till you are back in the office.
No answering emails after 5pm.

I think atm they want non flexible working but don’t understand the reality of what non flexible work looks like

Savoury · 05/08/2023 09:54

Re tribunal for discrimination, the bar for proving this is very high. You need to prove you were treated unfairly for being disabled/women/minority. In this case they would argue the rules apply to everyone. I don’t think she would win.
(Ignoring the comment when pregnant but you need to prove it )

HMW1906 · 05/08/2023 09:54

You’re contracted to (and presumably being paid) to work until 5pm so that is what you should be doing. Also if I read it right you’re working from home whilst also looking after your small child…this is impossible I can see why they don’t want this happening as you’re presumably not always available when you need to be.

on the other hand, stop working through your lunch break, stop answering emails from 6am-10pm, just answer emails between your contracted hours.

HaIIie · 05/08/2023 09:54

Whatever is in your contract will depend on hoe hard you can push. If youre contracted to work from the office until 5pm then YABU. The business needs come before the individual needs. You need to find a new job with contracted flexible working. If they want to keep you at that point they will offer to match it.

MinnieTruck · 05/08/2023 09:56

Before I even read the comments I said to myself, ‘Just get another job.’

They’re not going to budge and it all seems too stressful tbh