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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Flexible working revoked - help!!

410 replies

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 05/08/2023 07:59

Looking for a sounding board for a problem I'm having at work. Not sure what to do really...

So, I had a baby and returned after a 9 month maternity leave, but when my son was 5 months old, I discussed my return to work with my boss (male).

(I work as a PA for two people who own and run the company)

I asked to return to work 5 days a week, but to work 2 days from home and also if I could leave at 4.30pm instead of my contracted finish of 5pm in order to pick up my son from nursery. I was told that none of this was a problem and that I didn't need to be in when my boss wasn't in (he also worked 3 days a week in the office).

So I returned to work with this set up and did absolutely everything to make this work, which included working through lunch breaks and responding to emails from 6am-10pm 7 days a week.

After 8 months of this being in place, I was told (in the middle of the office, not privately) that they were going to need to ask me to return to the office 4 days a week as they couldn't give me something they weren't giving to the rest of the staff. I was assured that this had nothing to do with my performance as they know I'm working all the time, but purely to do with what other people in the office are allowed.

I had many discussions with them about the impact of this on me, and that it would cost me almost an extra £400 in childcare costs per month, to which I was told effectively that if I can't afford to have kids, I shouldn't have them.

At this point, two other women were having their working from home revoked, but they had had it for 11 and 14 years, and their children were in secondary school by this point.

In the discussions for this, my boss (female) had suggested to me that on the extra day I was being asked to work in the office, I could leave early. This was purely her idea and was even suggesting around lunchtime.

After all my protests, I was told they would get back to me...however 5 months later nobody had. As this was being requested to start in September, I approached my boss (female) last week to discuss it before my holiday, and her holiday. She seemed surprised, but thankful that I had put the wheels in motion and was making this happening and agreed that it had kind of been forgotten about (not by me, I can assure you!). When I then raised her idea of leaving early on the extra day in the office, she didn't seem to recall this conversation and actually seemed quite annoyed by it, asking "how early?". I suggested 3.30pm instead of 4.30pm, and as I could see that this request wasn't going down well, I suggested it be for the first 3 weeks to help my son settle in (as this also coincides with him moving to preschool).

She then said that we need to review my leaving at 4.30pm on other days, and would I be willing to leave at 5pm (my contracted time) instead. I said that it wasn't a case of being willing, but that if I left at that time, I wouldn't be able to make it to the nursery before they shut. She seemed in disbelief that it would take me that long to get home, but I pointed out that whilst Google might suggest it is an hour, that is if I hit all my connections and there is no traffic. In practice, this is never the case, and it it always takes me around 1 hour 20 mins.

Her reasoning for asking me to leave at 5pm was again, for parity across the office, but also in case her or my other boss need something urgent between 4.30-5pm. Whilst I understand this, in practice I don't think this is actually the case, as all day I am asked for very little and I am the proactive one asking if they need things all the time. I can't believe that something urgent would be regularly happening in the last 30 mins of the day.

She also said that if they finish a meeting after 4.30pm and I am gone, they might need something, and it's not fair on other members of staff as it puts more pressure on them. Whilst this is true, I have been back through the diaries and in the 201 days I have worked back in the office, they have had meetings that have gone beyond 4.30pm 18 times. Also, they have never had someone come to the office for a meeting that starts after 4.30pm.

Therefore I feel that this isn't a reflection of what actually happens. I can't believe that they ask for very little all day, but in that last 30 mins something urgent comes up. She also acknowledged that I am on email my whole journey home, but it's if something happens that I am needed in person. She accepted the fact I work through my lunch, and from early morning until late evening on emails, but that it was not about total hours worked.

For context, my company are very anti flexible working. I joined 3 days before lockdown in 2020, and went on maternity leave in July 2021, so had spent a massive amount of my employment working from home. They are on a drive to get people back to the office and don't want anyone working from home. They recently conducted a staff survey, and in that almost every member of the office requested more flexibility with working from home. Therefore they are begrudgingly reviewing it, but it seems they are missing the point that flexible working doesn't have to be the exact same conditions for everyone and that it is a case by case scenario.

I am unsure as to whether I am being unreasonable, or if not, how hard to push on this - especially given that I was told by my boss (male) that he asked if he could get rid of me when I told him I was pregnant!!

We are a small team and don't have an official HR department. We recently just got a freelance HR person in, but I'm unsure as to how much I trust them yet. Also, in my capacity as a PA I work very closely with my bosses and maintaining a good relationship is important. I'm not trying to rock the boat or get special privileges, but it's hard to make things work when the agreement keeps changing. I returned to work based on certain conditions and I set my life up around them.

Any advice would be so gratefully received as it is keeping me up at night!

Thank you!

OP posts:
sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 10:53

You may be championing the OP and any number of possible £400 childcare scenarios, but realistically, it’s not very helpful to her.

No I'm pointing out there isn't only one possible scenario here.

Despite entrenched posters who know better about OPs life than she does. Don't think that's particularly 'helpful' either.

I gave my actual advice pages ago thanks.

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 10:55

They're a business, not a babysitting service.

Oh do one.

LolaSmiles · 07/08/2023 11:01

sunglassesonthetable
It's a fairly big part of the puzzle though, especially when employers are cottoning onto the fact that some employees are using WFH to save on childcare. It's not unreasonable for people to ask about the obvious.

The manager isn't wrong to say that an employee's childcare costs aren't their problem. If someone's contract has them based at a place of work, they need appropriate childcare for their contract. That means if an informal arrangement no longer works then "but I'll have to pay £400 in childcare" isn't a reasonable thing to throw back at the manager.

Not sure where you got the " lots of adjustments to her house " though?
That's an autocorrect error. It should have been adjustments to her hours.

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 11:19

It's a fairly big part of the puzzle though, especially when employers are cottoning onto the fact that some employees are using WFH to save on childcare. It's not unreasonable for people to ask about the obvious.

Of course.

But not rewrite the events.

The manager isn't wrong to say that an employee's childcare costs aren't their problem. If someone's contract has them based at a place of work, they need appropriate childcare for their contract. That means if an informal arrangement no longer works then "but I'll have to pay £400 in childcare" isn't a reasonable thing to throw back at the manager.

I agree. But changing hours and arrangements is not always a reasonable thing either. There is more to it than "they just want to" as posters have been saying all along.

I suspect when this HR person gets on board it'll be more than just telling OP across the office " we're changing your WFH" . I'm not even sure parity counts as a reason. But don't quote me.

HauntedPencil · 07/08/2023 14:16

Yes it's perfectly possible due to the commuting she might have to pay extra for mornings/late nights or informally able to work evenings or late hours eg she's referenced answering emails and being available at 11pm.

We all get our kids from school at my place and it's not frowned upon at all.

Yalta · 07/08/2023 21:53

I actually think the £400 per month extra could end up being more.

In week it isn’t just 2 extra days childcare

It is also 5 extra hours (at least) in the evenings to pay a childminder to collect her child from nursery

It is probably 2 extra early morning drop offs to the childminder for her dc to be taken to nursery

It is 2 extra days of station parking

2 more train tickets

There could well be extra petrol involved just to do the drop offs and pick ups if the child minder lives further away from the nursery.

I actually think she is underestimating how much more money this will cost

vickylou78 · 08/08/2023 10:16

Yalta · 07/08/2023 21:53

I actually think the £400 per month extra could end up being more.

In week it isn’t just 2 extra days childcare

It is also 5 extra hours (at least) in the evenings to pay a childminder to collect her child from nursery

It is probably 2 extra early morning drop offs to the childminder for her dc to be taken to nursery

It is 2 extra days of station parking

2 more train tickets

There could well be extra petrol involved just to do the drop offs and pick ups if the child minder lives further away from the nursery.

I actually think she is underestimating how much more money this will cost

But the Op said the £400 was just childcare costs

Yalta · 08/08/2023 19:04

vickylou78 friend atm charges £12 per hour for wrap around care forbidden school age children only.

Just for pick ups that is £60 per week just for an hour wrap around care in the evening and then there is the extra 2 mornings, probably another 1-5 hours each day so another 3 hours or £36 per week there

Even if we just go by a 4 week month then there is pretty much the £400 per month.

We are in the southeast and an expensive commuter town and that is the cost around here.

Another friend who was in quite a good City salary worked out she spent the equivalent of her entire monthly salary less £45 on childcare when she had her 2nd.

Yalta · 08/08/2023 19:09

No one is going to look after a child for £5 per hour and provide a car to do pick ups and then provide breakfast and tea and be limited to just 4-6 children
It wouldn’t be cost effective.

IbizaToTheNorfolkBroads · 08/08/2023 19:10

Yalta · 08/08/2023 19:04

vickylou78 friend atm charges £12 per hour for wrap around care forbidden school age children only.

Just for pick ups that is £60 per week just for an hour wrap around care in the evening and then there is the extra 2 mornings, probably another 1-5 hours each day so another 3 hours or £36 per week there

Even if we just go by a 4 week month then there is pretty much the £400 per month.

We are in the southeast and an expensive commuter town and that is the cost around here.

Another friend who was in quite a good City salary worked out she spent the equivalent of her entire monthly salary less £45 on childcare when she had her 2nd.

That is an age old story.
It "cost" our household income £17 a month when I returned to work and we had 2 in nursery 3 days a week. I had a car, a pension, training, NI and professional memberships paid though. You need to think of childcare as a long term investment in your career.

IWantOutDoI · 09/08/2023 07:12

IbizaToTheNorfolkBroads · 08/08/2023 19:10

That is an age old story.
It "cost" our household income £17 a month when I returned to work and we had 2 in nursery 3 days a week. I had a car, a pension, training, NI and professional memberships paid though. You need to think of childcare as a long term investment in your career.

I would at yo that that you should compare what percentage of your household income (not only the mum’s income) nursery costs. At the end of the day, the child is his as well.

If you consider both incomes it is not that bad, so keep working, most mothers who end up in the pits after divorce, illness, death or unemployment of dad, end up there because they let go of their financial security to “take care of the children” which is, if you think deeply about it, ridiculous, as having a single income at home puts the whole family in a rather precarious position if things go pear shaped.

IWantOutDoI · 09/08/2023 07:13

“ I would add to that” I don’t know where that came from! 🤣

itchyscalp · 09/08/2023 07:51

I think YABU.

Can you get a nursery closer to your office? You won't need to leave earlier!

sunglassesonthetable · 09/08/2023 09:18

Can you get a nursery closer to your office? You won't need to leave earlier!

Don't uproot your child and trek them on that commute.

Change jobs OP. To a more forward thinking company that appreciates your graft.

There will be nice people everywhere.

LlynTegid · 09/08/2023 09:22

@sunglassesonthetable I agree time to look for another job. You are not the only one being treated unreasonably in my view, indeed others far worse I think, which indicates a company that you are best out of.

HollyBerri · 09/08/2023 09:38

Op please ignore some of the awful comments on here calling you a liar! I think you have explained your situation really well
My employer (civil service) has changed the rules re wfh for no good reason and its having a huge impact on staff morale.
I am personally more productive wfh, less distraction and no commute time eating into my day. It costs a fortune in travel costs too. I do enjoy going in aswell though so hybrid suits me.
it really annoys me that when it suited the employer wfh was good and worked well but without any evidence to back it up they have come up all the forward flexible ways of working.
I would be looking elsewhere op - even with a paycut you will probably be better iff Good luck.

Yalta · 09/08/2023 21:02

IbizaToTheNorfolkBroads I am not sure what people pay in different areas but the way people think that £400 per month for wrap around care is extortionate I wonder how any childminder is making any money.

I didn’t work f/t after having dc. We couldn’t have afforded to take the hit.

AndIKnewYouMeantIt · 10/08/2023 08:18

Yalta · 09/08/2023 21:02

IbizaToTheNorfolkBroads I am not sure what people pay in different areas but the way people think that £400 per month for wrap around care is extortionate I wonder how any childminder is making any money.

I didn’t work f/t after having dc. We couldn’t have afforded to take the hit.

Is it not because, for wraparound, OP would be saying one extra day a week in the office would cost her £100 a week, making it unlikely to just be that? As in, £100 for one morning and/or evening?

Yalta · 10/08/2023 08:44

AndIKnewYouMeantIt I read it as 2 days and then as she can’t leave at 4.30pm and has to stay till 5pm she wouldn’t be able to collect her ds from nursery on time so will have to have someone pick him up from nursery and so another 5 days for a childminder
plus potentially 2 extra days of childminding in the morning to get her dos to nursery and her to work

AndIKnewYouMeantIt · 10/08/2023 16:50

Yalta · 10/08/2023 08:44

AndIKnewYouMeantIt I read it as 2 days and then as she can’t leave at 4.30pm and has to stay till 5pm she wouldn’t be able to collect her ds from nursery on time so will have to have someone pick him up from nursery and so another 5 days for a childminder
plus potentially 2 extra days of childminding in the morning to get her dos to nursery and her to work

The 5pm finish came later in the timeline.

"After 8 months of this being in place, I was told (in the middle of the office, not privately) that they were going to need to ask me to return to the office 4 days a week as they couldn't give me something they weren't giving to the rest of the staff. I was assured that this had nothing to do with my performance as they know I'm working all the time, but purely to do with what other people in the office are allowed.

I had many discussions with them about the impact of this on me, and that it would cost me almost an extra £400 in childcare costs per month, to which I was told effectively that if I can't afford to have kids, I shouldn't have them."

KarmaStar · 10/08/2023 22:05

Unless you have it in writing there is probably not much you can do.
I agree with pp,a new job,nearer to home,is going to be your best bet.
I can see why a p.a..needs to be in the office when bosses are though.
Hope you find something much better suited to your family life.

afishcalledbreanda · 11/08/2023 08:22

Just noticed this article in the Telegraph about people having sex and napping while WFH... It's archived so that everyone has access:

http://archive.today/rIqT6

theyareonlynoodlesmichael · 11/08/2023 12:32

afishcalledbreanda · 11/08/2023 08:22

Just noticed this article in the Telegraph about people having sex and napping while WFH... It's archived so that everyone has access:

http://archive.today/rIqT6

I absolutely have napped and had sex when I am working from home. Why wouldnt I? Its called a lunchbreak.

Loub55 · 12/08/2023 20:13

theyareonlynoodlesmichael · 11/08/2023 12:32

I absolutely have napped and had sex when I am working from home. Why wouldnt I? Its called a lunchbreak.

Yep, we def utilised our lunch breaks when trying to concieve DD2 during covid wfh time!

SpainToday · 12/08/2023 21:33

Surely you can do whatever you like in your lunch break, it’s no business of your employer!