Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Flexible working revoked - help!!

410 replies

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 05/08/2023 07:59

Looking for a sounding board for a problem I'm having at work. Not sure what to do really...

So, I had a baby and returned after a 9 month maternity leave, but when my son was 5 months old, I discussed my return to work with my boss (male).

(I work as a PA for two people who own and run the company)

I asked to return to work 5 days a week, but to work 2 days from home and also if I could leave at 4.30pm instead of my contracted finish of 5pm in order to pick up my son from nursery. I was told that none of this was a problem and that I didn't need to be in when my boss wasn't in (he also worked 3 days a week in the office).

So I returned to work with this set up and did absolutely everything to make this work, which included working through lunch breaks and responding to emails from 6am-10pm 7 days a week.

After 8 months of this being in place, I was told (in the middle of the office, not privately) that they were going to need to ask me to return to the office 4 days a week as they couldn't give me something they weren't giving to the rest of the staff. I was assured that this had nothing to do with my performance as they know I'm working all the time, but purely to do with what other people in the office are allowed.

I had many discussions with them about the impact of this on me, and that it would cost me almost an extra £400 in childcare costs per month, to which I was told effectively that if I can't afford to have kids, I shouldn't have them.

At this point, two other women were having their working from home revoked, but they had had it for 11 and 14 years, and their children were in secondary school by this point.

In the discussions for this, my boss (female) had suggested to me that on the extra day I was being asked to work in the office, I could leave early. This was purely her idea and was even suggesting around lunchtime.

After all my protests, I was told they would get back to me...however 5 months later nobody had. As this was being requested to start in September, I approached my boss (female) last week to discuss it before my holiday, and her holiday. She seemed surprised, but thankful that I had put the wheels in motion and was making this happening and agreed that it had kind of been forgotten about (not by me, I can assure you!). When I then raised her idea of leaving early on the extra day in the office, she didn't seem to recall this conversation and actually seemed quite annoyed by it, asking "how early?". I suggested 3.30pm instead of 4.30pm, and as I could see that this request wasn't going down well, I suggested it be for the first 3 weeks to help my son settle in (as this also coincides with him moving to preschool).

She then said that we need to review my leaving at 4.30pm on other days, and would I be willing to leave at 5pm (my contracted time) instead. I said that it wasn't a case of being willing, but that if I left at that time, I wouldn't be able to make it to the nursery before they shut. She seemed in disbelief that it would take me that long to get home, but I pointed out that whilst Google might suggest it is an hour, that is if I hit all my connections and there is no traffic. In practice, this is never the case, and it it always takes me around 1 hour 20 mins.

Her reasoning for asking me to leave at 5pm was again, for parity across the office, but also in case her or my other boss need something urgent between 4.30-5pm. Whilst I understand this, in practice I don't think this is actually the case, as all day I am asked for very little and I am the proactive one asking if they need things all the time. I can't believe that something urgent would be regularly happening in the last 30 mins of the day.

She also said that if they finish a meeting after 4.30pm and I am gone, they might need something, and it's not fair on other members of staff as it puts more pressure on them. Whilst this is true, I have been back through the diaries and in the 201 days I have worked back in the office, they have had meetings that have gone beyond 4.30pm 18 times. Also, they have never had someone come to the office for a meeting that starts after 4.30pm.

Therefore I feel that this isn't a reflection of what actually happens. I can't believe that they ask for very little all day, but in that last 30 mins something urgent comes up. She also acknowledged that I am on email my whole journey home, but it's if something happens that I am needed in person. She accepted the fact I work through my lunch, and from early morning until late evening on emails, but that it was not about total hours worked.

For context, my company are very anti flexible working. I joined 3 days before lockdown in 2020, and went on maternity leave in July 2021, so had spent a massive amount of my employment working from home. They are on a drive to get people back to the office and don't want anyone working from home. They recently conducted a staff survey, and in that almost every member of the office requested more flexibility with working from home. Therefore they are begrudgingly reviewing it, but it seems they are missing the point that flexible working doesn't have to be the exact same conditions for everyone and that it is a case by case scenario.

I am unsure as to whether I am being unreasonable, or if not, how hard to push on this - especially given that I was told by my boss (male) that he asked if he could get rid of me when I told him I was pregnant!!

We are a small team and don't have an official HR department. We recently just got a freelance HR person in, but I'm unsure as to how much I trust them yet. Also, in my capacity as a PA I work very closely with my bosses and maintaining a good relationship is important. I'm not trying to rock the boat or get special privileges, but it's hard to make things work when the agreement keeps changing. I returned to work based on certain conditions and I set my life up around them.

Any advice would be so gratefully received as it is keeping me up at night!

Thank you!

OP posts:
Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 05/08/2023 09:11

‘ my company are very anti flexible working.’

and you want to work flexibly.

The rest of your post is, kindly , irrelevant. It’s not MN you need to convince, it’s your employers. If they are very anti, that’s their choice. If they are ‘old fashioned’ and ‘ selfish’ and all the other things your sympathisers have said, the business will probably not prosper; if they just know what they like and need as an office and can make a success of it, good for them and the rest of their staff.

I would stop trying to bail out a swimming pool with a sieve, and look for a flexible job. I hope you find something suitable.

WasJuliaRight · 05/08/2023 09:11

Are you the only one dropping off and picking up? Presumably you’re in a relationship with someone as I’m sure you would have mentioned if you weren’t. Can’t your partner help? Alternatively as a PP has said is there childcare nearer your work? An hour plus journey to get to nursery when time is tight is ridiculous, the thought of it stresses me out.

Change jobs, change nursery or change/share responsibilities are your options.

Luucylu · 05/08/2023 09:13

Are you still getting paid for the 30 minutes you aren't in the office when you leave at 4.30pm? If not, that isn't unreasonable.

Do you look after your child on the days you are working from home? If yes, that is unreasonable.

I own and run a small business where I am essentially 'HR' and if I had a staff member I valued and I thought was in the job for the long haul, I would absolutely work with them whilst they had a baby and beyond. To me, it sounds like they aren't that fussed in keeping you otherwise they'd work through it with you. I second other people, I think its time to look for a job where you and the employer are more compatible.

Savoury · 05/08/2023 09:14

Therefore they are begrudgingly reviewing it, but it seems they are missing the point that flexible working doesn't have to be the exact same conditions for everyone and that it is a case by case scenario.
This jumps out at me.. @Tiredofbeingtired1

At industry groups I attend, a big theme is equitability now. When people change their working practices formally either by changing their hours or days and getting paid less for it, everyone understands and accepts that because the trade-off is very apparent.

When one person changes their hours or working practices but not their pay on a case by case basis, the company opens themselves up to accusations of unfairness or indeed discrimination.

In many firms in some industries, unsociable or additional unpaid hours are the norm now. I’ve heard of one company having multiple grievances because they allowed some women to work 10 days in 9; it wasn’t universally offered and many are claiming they do the same hours on those 9 days but having to work the 10th anyhow.

In your case, I think they need to show fairness - especially if it was discussed loudly in the office - and are trying to be equal given the push to bring people back into the office. You don’t know if many others have requested the same treatment as you.

If this doesn’t work for you and you can’t formally reduce the hours, I’d start looking for another job where your hours are clear from the start and in the contract but be prepared that these thorny issues are being discussed in many firms.

Businessflake · 05/08/2023 09:14

There are so many PA jobs that are now on home worker contracts, particularly with larger companies. Just look for something else with more flexibility.

Tinkerbyebye · 05/08/2023 09:15

I would be looking for something else

Swanswimming · 05/08/2023 09:18

YANBU, but I'm not sure if they are either. They have decided that they'd like you to work your contracted hours. They've been very accommodating but now they would like you to be more available. They don't really have to justify to you that they want you to work until your actual finishing time, rather than go half an hour early.

If your child is at home being cared for you on your work at home days I'm afraid I think that is unreasonable.

It's also possible that unknown to you, some staff may have raised objections to what they see as unfair inequality.

I agree with others that the solution to this is for you to find another job.

Figmentofmyimagination · 05/08/2023 09:18

It sounds as if there might be direct and indirect sex discrimination at work here. The comment about wanting to sack you when pregnant is a bit of a red flag and if you can prove it, this would shift the burden of proof onto the organisation to show that sex in no way influenced their decision making. Not straightforward at all, but most ET judges would be very unimpressed by this behaviour, and there are tribunal decisions ruling that messing around with someone’s flexible working arrangements without justification amounted to both direct and indirect discrimination. It always depends on your individual factual scenario. Good sources of help are Yesslaw, and maternity action’s advice line. Good luck.

Coffeetree · 05/08/2023 09:19

Totally agree. You've asked, they've said no. Put your efforts into a new job.

As with all these kinds of threads, I have to ask whether the child has a living, functional father!

BabyYodasGotMyTeacher · 05/08/2023 09:19

£400 a month is £20 a day. If leaving at 4.30 means she can get to nursery by 6, but leaving at 5 means she can't get there till 6.30 then £20 doesn't seem like an unreasonable late pick up fee - or the cost of asking someone else to pick up the child and look after him.

AndIKnewYouMeantIt · 05/08/2023 09:21

If it's all on you to collect, 1hr20 is really difficult to manage as a commute in childcare that shuts at 6pm, especially as they get illnesses and need collecting. I looked at doing it myself. Your options are change childcare type, or change job location (most places will want a 5pm finish).
I'd have left when my boss told me he asked if he could sack me for being pregnant.

Swanswimming · 05/08/2023 09:21

Akire · 05/08/2023 09:09

Work out how much time and emails you have spent on average outside work hours in the last few months. Working through lunch cancels out leaving 30min early.

Suggest to them finding a new person who is office based for 5 days but who only works 9-5 will mean they are less flexible and do less work than you. They may decide the out of hours cover you provide they have “forgotten” about is more valuable to them.

Equally it might be more valuable for them to actually have their employee available during the firm's working hours. A lot of companies are trying to discourage out of hours working, as a wellbeing issue. A member of staff working in the evenings can put pressure on the people they are contacting to do the same. Whether that is implied or actual pressure, it can feel very unfair.

Asunnyspot · 05/08/2023 09:22

Wow! You are such a dedicated and hard working person. They should be bending over backwards to keep you!

I’m sure there are other employers who would be delighted to have you. Go and work for one of them!

KeepingMySpreadsheetUpToDate · 05/08/2023 09:22

with that commute time the geographical atea that you could job hunt in is huge. move on. their loss especially as you were answering emails v early and v late into the evening

Lifeisonebigadventure · 05/08/2023 09:23

I can see why your PA role is less flexible as you’re someone’s personal assistant and even though you can request flexible working, the flexible working needs to work for the role. Granted a 4:30 meeting finish could clash with your finish at 4:30, a solution would be you work a percentage of your hours remotely on a flexible basis. Flexible to suit you and your employers in a give and take basis so you can pick up the meeting email later that evening

However as equally that they can refuse a flexible working request, you can also choose whether to work for them or not. I would personally be looking to put the wheels in motion for a new role with a flexible employer - it’s very hard to get inflexible bosses to change.

With these changes requested, aside from finding a new role, I would also suggest you work your hours. This means once your shift finishes at 4:30/5 your computer is closed and work phone switched off. All emails and calls will wait until you start work again in the office. In some companies it may be usual practice to respond out of hours but your employer is not paying you to work that time. Working at that time comes from give and take, once a month I work two evenings on the trot until 11pm. However my employer gives me full flexibility to remote work, pop out to pick my daughter up from school, move my hours on a whim to help my childcare or exam revision, have 20% of my contracted hours flexible to suit me.

Good employers are out there, with staff perks that suit your current season of life, but your current employer isn’t it

Intensiv14 · 05/08/2023 09:23

I’m afraid it sounds like you’ll never get what you’re looking for in terms of flexibility from this firm.
If they begrudgingly agree to it, you can bet your bottom dollar a whole host of ‘unexpected urgent’ things crop up at 4.20pm for you, just as you are about to leave.
Start looking for another role now, they want you in the office 4 days, working your contracted hours. They don’t care if you work through lunch / start early. The main factor is having you in.
The only thing is to ask to go part time, to have those as your contracted hours, have you tried this?

greenteaandmarshmallows · 05/08/2023 09:24

Hang on. If this isn't contracted are you being paid for more hours than you work?

IWantOutDoI · 05/08/2023 09:24

It may be a blessing on disguise. I’m sure this flexi arrangement has you working so many extra unpaid hours you might be better off with a job that pays far less and you can do during school hours.

Blondebutnotlegally · 05/08/2023 09:25

No one said she's wfh with a toddler! Christ almighty

magicalkitty · 05/08/2023 09:26

Blondebutnotlegally · 05/08/2023 09:25

No one said she's wfh with a toddler! Christ almighty

In fairness, we don't know as she hasn't clarified either way. People are wondering because of the £400 extra quoted.

IamfeelingConfused · 05/08/2023 09:27

I don't understand the extra 3400 either, but you have a very long commute and they don't seem keen to be supportive... my suggestion is also you look elsewhere.

GoingGoingUp · 05/08/2023 09:28

BabyYodasGotMyTeacher · 05/08/2023 09:19

£400 a month is £20 a day. If leaving at 4.30 means she can get to nursery by 6, but leaving at 5 means she can't get there till 6.30 then £20 doesn't seem like an unreasonable late pick up fee - or the cost of asking someone else to pick up the child and look after him.

Or, it’s an extra nursery day per week. Seeing as she works from home two days a week and will need to be in the office an extra day, it suggests she doesn’t send her child on those days.

greenteaandmarshmallows · 05/08/2023 09:30

magicalkitty · 05/08/2023 09:26

In fairness, we don't know as she hasn't clarified either way. People are wondering because of the £400 extra quoted.

Yes it could be to cover extra hours etc but it's not clear

stayathomer · 05/08/2023 09:30

OP just the biggest of hugs. No help, I had a conversation recently with someone who was giving out about lack of flexibility for mothers but I said I understand it because I'm the only one in my workplace with kids and I know there's times they have to pick up the slack for me (mostly dh has to take time out of work when kids are sick so creche won't take them but there's times he can't). There has been post after post lately about sahp and it always brings me back down to this because I do wonder whether money is worth the two parents arguing trying to figure out who takes the (poor and sick and not needing his parents arguing!!) child

Sugarfree23 · 05/08/2023 09:33

Blondebutnotlegally · 05/08/2023 09:25

No one said she's wfh with a toddler! Christ almighty

Where's the extra £400 child care fee coming from if she's not wfh with child?

Swipe left for the next trending thread