To say that you definitely CAN make a rod for your own back when it comes to sleep, and it’s unreasonable to tell first time parents otherwise?

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First time round I bought into the whole gentle sleep thing… there’s no such thing as making a rod for your own back, sleep training is evil, it’s completely developmentally normal for children not to sleep through the night or sleep in their own beds until they’re off at uni etc. etc. (hyperbole, obviously). Parents are supposed to be completely exhausted and if you can’t cope with that then you’re selfish and don’t love your child enough to just put up with it.

I fed to sleep, contact napped and co-slept for 7 months at which point I was a zombie of a human with no relationship, sex life or me time. My child was entirely reliant on me to fall and stay asleep and had no sleep skills whatsoever of their own. I then had to sleep train which was much harsher than I would have liked ideally, but I was at the end of my tether. My baby and I were both exhausted. I barely had the energy to interact with them and we were both grouchy and miserable all the time. Once they slept through the night we were both so much happier and my baby started to thrive.

We went away with friends a few months ago who are in a similar position with their 18 month old. She spends hours feeding to sleep and then spends every night on a floor bed with her child while her husband sleeps elsewhere. Child wakes up 4+ times per night to feed. Friend confided that the strain it’s putting on her relationship with her husband is such that she feels they could separate over it, and yet she is adamant not to sleep train because of the damage she feels it could do to her child. She isn’t planning on having any more children because of how hard sleep has been for them.

I’ve recently had my second and was determined to do things differently from the start - minimal feeding to sleep, baby puts themself to sleep (no need for leaving to cry because we’ve done it since day 1), cot naps about 75% of the time in the day and always at night, co-sleeping is rare. Baby naps well and is waking once to feed each night at 3 months old, occasionally sleeping through. Baby is well rested, calm and easy to comfort. It is so much easier this way. So, so much easier. I actually feel so angry that I wasted the first 7 months of my older child’s life being so exhausted, frustrated and unhappy.

Why do people continue to argue that you can’t create bad sleep habits for your child when you so clearly can? And by doing so you’re likely to be either setting yourself up for years of utter exhaustion, or for some very tough sleep training later down the line? It’s like a horrible trap that first time parents are being tricked into.

I’m aware this is going to be very unpopular with a lot of people, so I’m bracing myself for the anti sleep training brigade to come at me!

A few months of waking every 2-3hr is totally normal, yes, but usually once a baby starts to reach 4-5m and beyond some start to be able to sleep longer stretches and only wake a couple times in the night. Unless you're my DS who couldn't physically sleep for longer than 40m at a time until sleep training at 6m. He would wake up then be unable to fall back asleep without help, which would have been fine if he didn't end up awake for hours and hours in the middle of the night.

Having a monitor during sleep training helps parents to take note of when their baby actually falls asleep, so that they can see progress each night, plus helps them judge whether to go in or not (we did Ferber where you go in and speak to and pat them but then leave again), if they're almost asleep you might decide not to go in and risk them starting crying again. Plus many parents want the reassurance of seeing that their baby is fine, other than crying.

A popular piece of advice though is to just turn the sound off and watch or keep track with the flashing light that comes up when there's a sound, seeing as hearing them cry can be very upsetting and doesn't really have much benefit, it can be harmful if it means it risks you giving up and going in to sooth them and undoing all their learning thus far.

I hate hate hate the phrase rod for your own back. would you say to your friend she was making a rod for her own back if she's eating too much? Or smoking? Or not exercising? What is it about parenting that makes everyone a bloody expert and so over involved. Your house is messy, you're making a rod for your own back not tidying it as part of a routine. Your husband is a dickhead, you're making a rod for your own back putting up with it. People make rods for their own backs in all walks of life.

You are my person! How on earth did you manage 3! I feel for you!!

Agree agree agree

People who think they've got it all right second time around and 'fail to understand' why other people choose differently can honestly come across as extremely arrogant and presumptive 🙄. And have clearly never had a very high needs difficult third child who does not follow any of the 'rules'! It is so much more about them than you.

Babies/toddlers are all fundamentally different and what works for some, will not work for others. Why is that so hard to understand? People make different choices according to their own circumstances all the time in all different ways, its completely normal. So assuming a magic one size fits all sleep training approach that works for everyone is naive.

I speak as a mother of 3 who has had VASTLY different experiences with sleep each time. With my eldest, I admittedly did too much, assumed I needed to rock and pat and hum for hours. A little bit of age appropriate stepping back to help them to learn to settle themselves worked a treat and was not distressing at all. Second child was born a good sleeper, always self settled and slept in cot, nothing much to do with me although I did intervene less...no 'sleep training' at all. Still sleeps deeply and well. Third child? Absolutely sent to try me, humble and challenge me and still sleeps poorly at 18m. Resists absolutely all attempts at 'sleep training' and believe me I have tried, persisted, held out for hours and followed all professional advice. But they are simply not having it, have far far more stamina than me and would literally scream all night, even with me in the room, given half a chance. I haven't done anything differently with #3 but I got what I got. Implying that I just need to apply some perfect parent technique and all will suddenly be well is simply not the case. Very jealous of all those with good sleepers and those babies that are developmentally and temperamentally ready and responsive to such methods though. I'll sleep again one day...I hope!

I agreed with the op but I did not mean that I think my way is vastly superior.
I read the op as an argument against all the messages you get that you HAVE to just do exactly what the baby wants and you can't possibly teach them anything. I have friends who tell me that sleep is developmental and they spend hours lying with their 6/7/8 year olds to sleep at night. Or getting up with their 3 year olds in the night. I think it is possible to have a middle ground, if you want one.

Gosh, when I was looking into solutions for my baby who couldn't sleep longer than 40m at a time and then took up to four hours to go back to sleep I heard the 'sLeEp Is DeVeLoPmEnTaL' so many times. Okay, everyone develops at different paces and maybe some parents don't mind their eight year old not sleeping. Maybe not every parent can physically and mental tolerate terrible sleep for that long until baby finally figures out how to sleep. Maybe parents can't afford to fall asleep at their jobs or at the wheel or have mental or physical health conditions exacerbated or caused by poor sleep.

The absolute privilege one must possess to be able to handle waking up every hour or two throughout the night every single night without any other responsibilities in the day such as work, other kids or keeping the baby safe.

Or... people can sleep train, everyone is happier, baby gets the sleep they so badly need for their development and benefits from happier more rested parents :)

'Sleep is developmental' might be a position some people believe but it's one hell of a shitty response to a struggling new parent saying they NEED TO GET SOME SLEEP

Some babies just don't sleep.
I didn't know what the hell I was doing wrong with DS1. Didn't matter what you did, he didn't sleep (still doesnt - and he's a teen who is supposed to sleep til lunch now).
Then DS2 arrived, and, you know what, you could put him down, and he could sleep. Yes, sometimes he grumbled, but could still be persuaded to nap 95% of the time.
Sometimes, those parents "pandering" to their child are doing whatever the fuck they can to get even a 30 min block of sleep.

Your post is interesting because I feel almost exactly the opposite, I regret the amount of time I spent trying to convince my first to sleep in a cot when she was very clearly communicating to me that she wanted to be with me. It was a miserable experience for both of us and she is the far worse sleeper of our two.

With our second I had neither the energy or the inclination to do anything other than maximise sleep, and for us that was Co-sleeping. I didn’t sleep in the same bed as my DH for the best part of a year but we still had a sex life and a relationship. I don’t. Buy into the whole idea of separate beds being the end of a relationship.

As you’re an experienced parent I’m sure you can realise that children come out of the womb with their own set of needs and preferences, and what works for one child will not work for another. Best just to be supportive and sympathetic to your friend and let her parent her child the way she sees fit.

I didn’t sleep train before 6 months

Separate beds isn’t the end of a relationship or sex life by any means. Living in a daze of complete exhaustion and not having an evening together for years because you have to lie with your little one for hours every night, as in the case of my friend, may well be.

I’d argue it’s essential for most couples to have regular, uninterrupted alone time in order to maintain a healthy relationship.

Disagree I'm afraid. Not saying that's not what you experienced but every child is different. I fed to sleep, contact napped, bed shared. Ds1 slept through the night independently without me doing anything at 17 months old then stopped feeding to sleep at 23 months. Now he just goes to sleep on his own and sleeps through.

Ds2 is 6 months and I feed to sleep but he's not as clingy as older brother. He likes a carrier / wrap nap but is very happy going off to sleep in the buggy or having a quick feed in bed then rolling over and sleeping. They're all different I guess. But I find bed sharing/ contact napping and feeding to sleep helped me get more sleep and didn't impact my children developing their own sleep habits

Ds1 also got used to me leaving in the early evening to spend the evening with DH. He'd wake at first, cry but after a while would see the camera monitor on and just go back to sleep. Now ds2 is 6 months, I'll be getting up and leaving him some evenings too for a wee bit. So I had evenings too with DH to watch crap TV together lol

My point was that, for us, Co-sleeping was what maximised sleep for everyone. My DD fell asleep easily with me lying with her, it was 30 mins max of peaceful cuddles vs (in our experience) and hour plus of trying to convince a stressed child that her cot was ok. It didn’t work for you, but it 100% worked for us.

By no means was I saying in my OP that these things don’t work for anyone at all. What I said was there definitely is such a thing as creating bad sleep habits for a child that they find it very hard to grow out of. Doesn’t mean there won’t be any children that start sleeping through all by themselves at 6 months despite being fed/cuddled to sleep, but there are more that won’t.

I’ve met many people who say they regret feeding or cuddling to sleep but never one who says they regret their child putting themselves to sleep!

But the people that things worked for and were successful with won't say they regret it because what is there to regret. But a poster, that you responded to, essentially said 'I regret spending so much time trying to get them to sleep alone when there was another way'...and they won't be the only person to feel that way. Plenty of people post about regretting being so worked up about sleep and routines and such.

I don't regret feeding and cuddling to sleep because it worked for me and my baby and we got lots of sleep and so there was nothing to regret. Someone who sleep trained and it worked will also have nothing to regret.

I think Lyndsey Hookway is the most sensible about sleep - she reckons that you could put children into three groups, easy responders, who tend to respond really well to the sleep guru stuff like routines, self soothing etc, (these are probably the children whose parents go around saying things like "I don't understand why people don't just...." ) going by the Amy Brown study, I would guess around 20% of children are probably in this group.

non responders, who won't sleep independently no matter what you throw at them, (and to this group, sleep training probably is cruel) and then the rest, who will likely respond to sleep training but it takes a little longer, it is a little harder and it does require some consistent effort and some short term upset for the baby/child.

She doesn't really like sleep training so she doesn't advocate for it, though she does have (slower) ways to . But I like the fact that she acknowledges that it probably works differently for different children.

I don't like the fact that pro sleep training people seem to think that any sleep pattern which is different to THEIR ideal is totally wrong and slack and evidence of parental failure. Or attach a bunch of morals to sleep like "good habits" "bad habits" because I think this is unhelpful and destructive.

But I also don't like the narrative that comes from anti-sleep-training proponents who say that sleep training is always cruel, damaging, neglectful etc because this is just ridiculous - that's not how attachment works.

Why does it have to be so polarised?? It's so ridiculous because you can see obviously that neither narrative is true yet there is hardly anyone in the middle being sensible! People on Reddit cite Precious Little Sleep as being in the middle but there are even lines on her website that wind me up like "If you do not separate feeding from sleep by 4 months, you will never sleep through the night" WHAT don't be stupid.

(I'm sure Lyndsay Hookway probably has some rage inducing lines from the other angle as well unfortunately).

slower ways to make changes

Yes I think it is true that you can create habits which children get used to and they come to expect that for sleep.

I don't think it's helpful to call them bad habits. There is nothing bad about them. There is nothing wrong with supporting children to sleep.

Also, I think it is more often the parents who are in the habit, not the child as such. I know that when I wanted to stop co-sleeping with my younger two, it took a lot longer to change things when I very quickly went to oh fine OK I'll just bring you into my bed. But when I stayed consistent about resettling them in their own rooms, they stopped expecting to be brought in. This didn't bother them at all. There was no crying, they still got what they wanted (a comforting presence), I just didn't get what I wanted, which was to go instantly back to sleep. I had to invest a bit more time in staying with them and ensuring that they were asleep rather than taking the easy route for me.

Yabu

it depends on the child to a huge degree, I am not smug or evangelistic about how I sleep-trained; I won’t diss the traditional methods (although personally couldn’t handle CIO), nor will I judge someone for careful co-sleeping or bed-sharing.

My dc1 was in her own cot at 3.5 months. Baby was EBF. At age 1 month I followed a routine which did not involve feeding to sleep as I felt it was increasing my dd’s awful pain from wind and responsible for her waking early from naps and at night. I did feed on demand, but would never let my baby fall asleep feeding. I STILL was exhausted and my baby STiLL cried a lot and I spent a lot of time on the “gentle” sleep training teaching her to self settle

With Dc2, again EBF, I dd careful bed-sharing. DH slept in spare room as we now have a bigger house this was possible! I found it SO much easier - I slept, baby slept. Also dc2 had terrible reflux so I did spend a lot of time making sure he wasn’t going to vomit after feeds. Again I couldn’t feed him to sleep for that reason.

the whole topic is too polarised - there’s a range of strategies and techniques, be aware some carry risks, pick what works best for you. Surely that’s all there is to say?

OP you have hit the nail on the head!!!!!

I have 3dcs, all girls if that matters.

DC 1 and 2 were put down to nap, fell asleep on their own, slept through the night all good, if they were up before 7am they had to read books in their rooms or play in their rooms so no hugely early wakeup calls

DC3 was "spoiled" lol, i held her whilst she napped, i didnt really allow her to self settle and allowed her to come into our bed. Now at 3 she cant self settle or sleep without being cuddles, she wakes every night and comes into our bed but she doesnt wake up dreadfully early.

I will say she is still a good sleeper, all of mine have been but DC3 was treated differently when it came to sleep and that shows massively and that has had a negative affect on how she falls asleep and stays asleep so....

I fully blame my particular parenting style for that which means i also believe that its the parents doing 95% of the time when it comes to how well their child sleeps.

Babies arent the blank canvas that many people assume they are. My eldest was a rubbish sleeper, so I blamed myself entirely for that. But he rarely cried, and he ate everything in sight (including genuinely revolting lentil/spinach/salmon concoctions) which I gave myself full credit for, and merrily dolled out lots of unsolicited advice about.

My second slept - no special tricks, just put her down and shushed a bit,and then she stayed asleep. But she wouldn't eat anything, and had (has?!) an incredibly low tolerance for anything not being exactly how she wanted it.

The child makes more of a difference than the parent 🤷‍♀️

@BertieBotts I'm a few years out of this level of sleep obsession now, but that sounds exactly like my experience. Some babies literally are "non-responders" and are screaming blue murder the second you try to prise them off the boob, no matter how awake OR asleep they are. Whereas others just need varying levels of persuasion...

I think babies and their parents are so different that there isn't a one size fits all kind of approach surely, and I find it really weird when people start barking about "down in the cot from day 1, never fed them to sleep" as though it's a military operation.

I had a very easy first baby - usually slept through from fairly early on, few unsettled periods and generally napped in the car/pram easily. Thought I had the parenting thing sussed 😂. DC2 was completely different - bf until almost 4, woke frequently, fed to sleep, I co-slept etc. I still lie with her at bedtime at 5 which according to many on this thread, is too old! I chose not to sleep train because we live in a flat, the kids shared a room at that point and I wasn't up for leaving a baby to cry - sleep training just isn't for everyone 🤷

I mean if someone is unhappy and exhausted it's worth exploring other options but it's not really helpful to say "if you just do this they'll sleep" or blaming parents for poor parenting or bad habits. Some babies just need a little more contact than others.

Because 18 months isn’t long enough to see.

I do slept with both dc… i was not a zombie. In fact, due to breastfeeding I rarely had to get out of bed. Breast is best for laziness 🤣

I have a 13yr old who slept in my bed until he was 6. Dh and I just shagged in the living room of an evening 🤷‍♀️

Ds is 14 now and would never dream of sleeping in bed with me. He doesn’t have issues with sleep and he is very attached and loving.