To say that you definitely CAN make a rod for your own back when it comes to sleep, and it’s unreasonable to tell first time parents otherwise?

[NameChange547]

First time round I bought into the whole gentle sleep thing… there’s no such thing as making a rod for your own back, sleep training is evil, it’s completely developmentally normal for children not to sleep through the night or sleep in their own beds until they’re off at uni etc. etc. (hyperbole, obviously). Parents are supposed to be completely exhausted and if you can’t cope with that then you’re selfish and don’t love your child enough to just put up with it.

I fed to sleep, contact napped and co-slept for 7 months at which point I was a zombie of a human with no relationship, sex life or me time. My child was entirely reliant on me to fall and stay asleep and had no sleep skills whatsoever of their own. I then had to sleep train which was much harsher than I would have liked ideally, but I was at the end of my tether. My baby and I were both exhausted. I barely had the energy to interact with them and we were both grouchy and miserable all the time. Once they slept through the night we were both so much happier and my baby started to thrive.

We went away with friends a few months ago who are in a similar position with their 18 month old. She spends hours feeding to sleep and then spends every night on a floor bed with her child while her husband sleeps elsewhere. Child wakes up 4+ times per night to feed. Friend confided that the strain it’s putting on her relationship with her husband is such that she feels they could separate over it, and yet she is adamant not to sleep train because of the damage she feels it could do to her child. She isn’t planning on having any more children because of how hard sleep has been for them.

I’ve recently had my second and was determined to do things differently from the start - minimal feeding to sleep, baby puts themself to sleep (no need for leaving to cry because we’ve done it since day 1), cot naps about 75% of the time in the day and always at night, co-sleeping is rare. Baby naps well and is waking once to feed each night at 3 months old, occasionally sleeping through. Baby is well rested, calm and easy to comfort. It is so much easier this way. So, so much easier. I actually feel so angry that I wasted the first 7 months of my older child’s life being so exhausted, frustrated and unhappy.

Why do people continue to argue that you can’t create bad sleep habits for your child when you so clearly can? And by doing so you’re likely to be either setting yourself up for years of utter exhaustion, or for some very tough sleep training later down the line? It’s like a horrible trap that first time parents are being tricked into.

I’m aware this is going to be very unpopular with a lot of people, so I’m bracing myself for the anti sleep training brigade to come at me!

With the greatest of respect your baby is 3 months old, I was like this with my second after the first was a terrible sleep so thought I would make sure I kept him sleeping in his cot, I was feeling pretty smug about it until bam when he was about 5 months it all went to pot and he started waking up hourly 😂

Lol six months is the earliest you should sleep train if you have to do it. It would be very cruel to do it earlier and is against guidance. You’re also very lucky it worked.

Didn’t sleep train, bed share and fed to sleep until 15 months. From 15 months (when night weaned) toddler has slept through the night. Doesn’t need rocked / soothed to sleep at bed time or naps, can now get himself to sleep. We didn’t create a problem sleeper.

All children are different but no one can persuade me that leaving a baby to cry and / or not meeting their emotional needs at such a young age is the right thing to do.

You can sleep when you're dead. Babies are only tiny for such a short time. YABU

Sounds a bit martyr ish to me.

I think the polarisation is really unhelpful. And I get really cross about the framing of sleep/sleep-related-habits or behaviours as being "good" or "bad" because these make it seem like something moral that you can get right or wrong when the reality is that different things work for different families.

I do agree that it's likely possible to set up habits/patterns from the start which are more likely to promote independent, more consolidated sleep from an earlier age. But I don't think that these are completely harmless - most of the things that you need to do directly impact on breastfeeding, and they are also really really tough to do when you are tired!

Since they are basically the same things you have to do later on if you want to encourage independent sleep, it works better for some families to simply wait until the general overwhelm and newness of having a newborn has passed a bit.

Newborns also need to wake up several times a night to feed. No sleep plan on earth could change that unless you're going to drug the baby (which, obviously, no) so if you plan to "set up good sleep habits" right from the start you're still going to have to go through several weeks/months of multiple night wake ups, and it's objectively harder and more exhausting in the short term to try and settle the baby without feeding them, or try to make sure that they are still awake when you put them down, or ensure that you settle them in a cot, than it is to just bring them into bed and lie down breastfeeding them, or instantly feed them and then lie them down once they have gone back into a deep sleep from feeding.

It is my observation that when someone is bottle feeding from the start, these kinds of habits that separate feeding from sleep tend to be the easier route automatically, which is probably why you tend to get the association that breastfeeding = more sleep trouble and bottle feeding = easier sleep.

Also, some babies are harder to do all these sleep-habit things with than others. Some simply won't do it no matter how persistent you are, it's probably cruel to force the issue in that case, not to mention being difficult and guilt-inducing for the parents. There was even a study that showed the kinds of things recommended "to form good sleep habits" only work in about 20% of cases. I don't know what was the cause of the failure in the other 80%, but it shows clearly that it doesn't work for everyone. My guess is that some of the 80% will have had velcro babies who just don't tolerate any kind of effort to "make them independent" while some of the 80% will have simply found the instructions difficult to stick to for their own reasons rather than anything to do with the baby.

Lastly, you can make those changes any time. It probably is harder to establish different habits later, but it's not like there is a deadline and if you haven't got it "right" by a certain age then it will never happen. You have to put the work in if you want them to sleep independently earlier than they do it by themselves. But they do all get there eventually, even if you do nothing.

It's not just luck. Parental intervention can and does impact baby sleep habits.

Have a niece who was a terrible sleeper, took hours to get her down and woke up several times a night until parents spent money on a sleep consultant. Went to sleep on her own, was able to resettle herself during wakes and sleeping much more. By their own admission, her parents stopped being consistent and went back to old habits and she reverted to them being her sleep association. She's 5 now and still dependent on them to get her to sleep. Whilst their second is a great sleeper and has been from day one.

So it can be luck but it's not all luck, parents can do things to help baby sleep.

I somewhat agree with you that good or bad sleep habits can be created. However YABU if you think that just because you tried something different with a second baby that it would work for everyone.

With both my children I've done black out blinds, drowsy but awake and next-to-me cots. DC1 was a good sleeper, fitted into routines quite happily and slept well. DC2 has reflux and CMPA. Sometimes she'll settle on her own in the cot, other times she'll scream until she's rocked to sleep, sometimes she'll wake every 2 hours, others she'll sleep for a 6 hour stretch and my boobs feel like they'll burst.

I'm so, so relieved I had my babies this way round, as at least I know it's not anything I'm doing wrong. I was lucky to have a well child who was mostly a good sleeper first time round, DD just needs more support.

4-6 months is recommended as the sleep training sweet spot.

Newborns also need to wake up several times a night to feed. No sleep plan on earth could change that unless you're going to drug the baby (which, obviously, no) so if you plan to "set up good sleep habits" right from the start you're still going to have to go through several weeks/months of multiple night wake ups, and it's objectively harder and more exhausting in the short term to try and settle the baby without feeding them, or try to make sure that they are still awake when you put them down, or ensure that you settle them in a cot, than it is to just bring them into bed and lie down breastfeeding them, or instantly feed them and then lie them down once they have gone back into a deep sleep from feeding.

I'm not sure why your last two suggestions aren't good habits anyway?

I haven't had any sleep trouble with my breastfed son. And bottle fed babies can be bad sleepers too. It all depends on the baby.

Oh depended on so many things though.
We had large Co sleeping cot and I had far more sleep with dd next to me oh it than with dc no 1 on a moses then next door.
I also bf to sleep etc.

When it was time to move her dd was totally ready to go.

Tbh is cringe when I hear terms like that which can stop parents giving into their natural instinct.

Totally agree, although it was the other way round for us! Was very strict with routine / self settling / not feeding to sleep etc with DD1. She slept through the night from 10 weeks old (formula fed), and to this day (age 6) she happily goes to bed, reads for a bit and then turns out her light. I can count on one hand the times she's woken in the night.

For various reasons, with DD2 we weren't as strict at all. Fed to sleep (also formula fed) - she had CMPA and hated the milk, so the only way to get her to take it was when she was half asleep! She is about to turn 3 now. One of us has to lay with her for her to drop off, and she comes into our bed to sleep at about 1-2 am. I don't really mind this at all, but when she was younger & in a cot it was exhausting - waking multiple times a night for milk to get back to sleep, even at age 2.

We definitely made a rod for our own backs! It's not too bad now though, but I can certainly see how she's the sleeper she is!

completely agree OP
and think anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a martyr tbh and wants to wear their exhaustion as some sort of badge of honour like it makes them a better parent or something

There are far too many variables in peoples lives to work out why one baby sleeps and another doesn't. It could be the child's personality, the mothers stress, the family dynamics, how busy it is, how quiet it is, whether there's a medical problem. Or a combination of some or all of those. That's why one thing rarely works for everyone.

In my experience (40 yrs in childcare & 2 of my own) parents don't cause their babies sleep issues but they often inadvertently facilitate them out of desperation. Chopping and changing routines too frequently to find one that works is one that has come up regularly over the years. Getting stressed, having no one to support or help, being physically unable to cope with reduced sleeping patterns. People just do what they need to do at that moment in time to get some rest.

The single most effective thing I have learned in all my years with babies (just in case anyone wants to try it) is to just stop. Stop jiggling, rocking, pacing, driving. Sit comfortably with baby's head on your left arm, turn their body to yours so you are stomach to stomach, hold quite firmly to you with your right arm over their legs but on top of their bottom, slow your breathing, close your eyes and just sit. If you feel you need to comfort make a quiet shush sound on each outward breath.

And if you are one of those people who are lucky enough to have a baby who sleeps from the start, count your blessings.

Well of course it's fine to bring a baby into bed or feed them to sleep, if you read my whole post, that's exactly what I said. The idea that bringing them into bed or feeding to sleep is a "bad habit" is unhelpful. It works perfectly fine if that is what works for you. I thought it was wonderful actually.

But it probably is true that babies who are put down awake and not fed to sleep and get used to sleeping in their own space drop night feeds earlier and are more likely to be able to go off to sleep on their own at the start of the night and when they wake in the night.

In general, obviously. Nobody can predict the exact behaviour of one specific baby because they are all individual people, not robots.

I think it depends on the child. Sleep training didn't work with either of mine and I wasn't at all opposed to it, they were both terrible sleepers for the first 5 months and my second through to being 2 despite all attempts and techniques (he's still a terrible sleeper tbh and only needs about 6 hrs a day)

@Kindofcrunchy

martyr alert!!
who wants to be sleep deprived if they dont have to be?!

THIS.
For me

1#- never coslept, used CIO. He never slept and didn't sleep through until he was 5.

2# - only co-slept, never did CIO. He never slept and didn't sleep through until he was 6.

3# - a mix of the above, never slept, still doesn't always sleep through and he's 4.

I breed non-sleepers whether I have them in my bed or pay hundreds for a sleep trainers support.

Totally agree with you OP, I have had 4, all very different babies but routine and sleep habits from day one and never had a problem. I was spurred on to do this when I saw my brother and his wife take turns to lie with a 4 year old for hours every night to get them asleep,. Not a chance would I be doing that and I never did. I didn't need to. I think that must be soul destroying to have to do every night.

Sorry I haven't rtft.
I think there are various factors it's not always as formulaic as doing x,y and z = baby sleeps all night.

To a certain degree there is luck and temperament of baby and confidence as a parent .
First DC was an absolute pain about sleeping (so was I when I was a baby/toddler!!) We tried various sleep training techniques probablyfrom maybe 10 months. It would work for a few weeks then something would change (she was ill, teething, we went on holiday, stayed overnight somewhere different etc) and we'd be back to square one and have to start again. Didn't sleep a whole night regularly until 6 years. She's a teen now and takes a long time to get to sleep, but sleeps in.
2nd child I didn't co sleep with. He slept through at 6 months and now as a teen, goes to sleep quickly and needs more sleep than DD.

While of course there are things we can all do to parent better, I think lots of people like to credit their parenting skills for some things that include an element of luck (sleeping, temperament, fussy eating, night time dryness)

New mum here soon 👋! I’d love any tips on how to implement loose schedules when breastfeeding to promote good sleeping habits.

so far I have:

1. don’t feed to sleep
2. avoid contact naps
3. avoid cosleeping (have a next to me cot instead)
4. start the day at a set time (eg 7am), bathtime at set time at first to try and get the day in a routine. Would you recommend more scheduled routine if wanting to breastfeed?
5. don’t put to the breast at the first squeak - might not be hungry and don’t want to be used as a dummy
6. keep night times boring with low lights etc so try and learn difference between night and day

any other advice?? Thanks!
ps. Hope I’m not derailing the thread

As a parent of 3 I agree mostly. I did put my 3rd child down to nap in her cot every nap. I didn't set out to sleep train but I put her down to tend to my 5 year old and once I went back in the room she was asleep. Once she reached one she was on one nap a day and I cap it at 2 hours. Her bedtime is 8pm but I start the routine at 7.30pm. She sleeps a solid 12 hours. Some of this is down to her though, she has always fed well and sleeps well. I only ever co-sleep if she is ill. I never did contact naps with her because as a mum of 3 I just couldn't (two other kids to tend to as well as everything else).

With my first, I bought her into our bed just to get some sleep, next to me cribs were not a thing then (as far as I was aware) otherwise I would have bought one. She was a much smaller baby than my current baby and drank little but often. She woke in the night due to hunger but was much better after she was 1. My son went in the cot for all his naps, he drank and ate well but woke twice a night until he was 2. I tried all sorts and it was hard. As a baby I used to rock him to sleep but he was a big boy and I couldn't do that once he was 1, it took ages for him to get out of the habit though.

Now dd1 is up to start the day at 7am no matter what time she goes to bed. Ds will sleep till 8am if allowed (weekends), dd2 sleeps a solid 12 hours unless ill. They are all different. Some of the settling to sleep was down to the techniques I used but a lot of their sleep needs were down to them.

Baby #1 - topped up breast feeds with expressed bottles, put him in his cot for naps & left the room, he was sleeping through at 10 weeks.

Baby #2 - I followed advice from my 'health visitor', didn't attempt to give him a bottle (HV kept going on about nipple confusion if you use two feeding methods) & had him sleep close by me (HV advice again). I went 13 months on 3hrs sleep per night. It was hell.

Baby #3 - I was always out when the HV called. He was sleeping through at 10 weeks like his eldest brother.

Of course, it could be coincidence.... but I doubt it.

Honestly I would just say do what feels right for you and your baby. Avoiding contact naps might help your baby sleep
more independently- but honestly I loved those naps when DD was tiny and I wouldn’t trade those memories for the world (equally some people feel trapped and hate them!)