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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say that you definitely CAN make a rod for your own back when it comes to sleep, and it’s unreasonable to tell first time parents otherwise?

246 replies

NameChange547 · 31/07/2023 14:38

First time round I bought into the whole gentle sleep thing… there’s no such thing as making a rod for your own back, sleep training is evil, it’s completely developmentally normal for children not to sleep through the night or sleep in their own beds until they’re off at uni etc. etc. (hyperbole, obviously). Parents are supposed to be completely exhausted and if you can’t cope with that then you’re selfish and don’t love your child enough to just put up with it.

I fed to sleep, contact napped and co-slept for 7 months at which point I was a zombie of a human with no relationship, sex life or me time. My child was entirely reliant on me to fall and stay asleep and had no sleep skills whatsoever of their own. I then had to sleep train which was much harsher than I would have liked ideally, but I was at the end of my tether. My baby and I were both exhausted. I barely had the energy to interact with them and we were both grouchy and miserable all the time. Once they slept through the night we were both so much happier and my baby started to thrive.

We went away with friends a few months ago who are in a similar position with their 18 month old. She spends hours feeding to sleep and then spends every night on a floor bed with her child while her husband sleeps elsewhere. Child wakes up 4+ times per night to feed. Friend confided that the strain it’s putting on her relationship with her husband is such that she feels they could separate over it, and yet she is adamant not to sleep train because of the damage she feels it could do to her child. She isn’t planning on having any more children because of how hard sleep has been for them.

I’ve recently had my second and was determined to do things differently from the start - minimal feeding to sleep, baby puts themself to sleep (no need for leaving to cry because we’ve done it since day 1), cot naps about 75% of the time in the day and always at night, co-sleeping is rare. Baby naps well and is waking once to feed each night at 3 months old, occasionally sleeping through. Baby is well rested, calm and easy to comfort. It is so much easier this way. So, so much easier. I actually feel so angry that I wasted the first 7 months of my older child’s life being so exhausted, frustrated and unhappy.

Why do people continue to argue that you can’t create bad sleep habits for your child when you so clearly can? And by doing so you’re likely to be either setting yourself up for years of utter exhaustion, or for some very tough sleep training later down the line? It’s like a horrible trap that first time parents are being tricked into.

I’m aware this is going to be very unpopular with a lot of people, so I’m bracing myself for the anti sleep training brigade to come at me!

OP posts:
willywallaby · 04/08/2023 12:19

Jamtartforme · 04/08/2023 10:39

@willywallaby to be honest that’s probably because she was far too young for sleep training. There’s a world of difference between sleep training at 3 months and 18 months. I’ve never seen anyone promote sleep training for tiny babies and I can see why it didn’t work.

The Little Ones Sleep Solution isn't sleep training per se, they have a programme for under 6 months which focuses on 'instilling good habits' e.g. getting them onto a schedule, feed-play-sleep routine so they don't associate feeding with sleep and that sort of thing. So that if your baby has 'good habits' from the start they will be a better sleeper later on. I.e. making sure you don't create a rod for your own back. Except that the stress of trying not to make a rod for my own back in that scenario ended up making a rod for my back which I was happy to get rid of.

NameChange547 · 06/08/2023 12:08

According to what evidence? People say that, but in what way is it actually true? Because I bought into that idea and then at 3 months old had a baby who relied entirely on me to fall asleep and was unable to change that without sleep training… and I know many others who have done the same.

OP posts:
sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 16:30

I think you can promote good habits from the off. I wouldn't call that sleep training though.

Herejusttocomment · 06/08/2023 16:52

And this is why I quit all mummy forums/groups when my DD was little. All this debate of what other parents should do with their children, all this judgement on their situations, like you're all competing in the Parenting Olympics or something. Like all babies are the same! All families are the same! All situations are the same.

Btw, if anyone is feeling the same as me, I highly recommend Elizabeth Pantley's books, they saved my sanity!

Blahblahgingerbreadlady · 06/08/2023 19:33

NameChange547 · 03/08/2023 07:52

The point of my post is that if I hadn’t let my child get into bad habits from day 1 I wouldn’t have had to sleep train at all. I had no idea that feeding or rocking to sleep every single time in the newborn phase would cause a problem that I would have to solve eventually, because I had read and bought into the idea that there’s no such thing as a bad sleep habit. We definitely could have had a different first 6 months. Not saying I can predict exactly how they would have slept but there definitely would have been less crying on both of our parts.

How are they bad habits? It’s literally how you’re supposed to look after a newborn.

Eddyraisins · 06/08/2023 19:42

Sunshinegirl82 · 03/08/2023 20:55

I remember being at a baby massage class with my anti-natal class group and DS1 was unhappy to even lay on the mat to be massaged as he was all about lots of physical contact. Would much rather sit on my lap and look about, fought sleep desperately.

My friend's baby was tired and actively wriggled until put down alone at which point she put herself to sleep with no support at all. My friend was quite sad that she couldn't have a snuggle with a sleepy baby as her DD just didn't like it. The babies were 12 weeks or so.

I still marvel at people having lunch or whatever whilst their baby happily plays in the buggy beside them for ages - neither of mine would ever tolerate that, they screamed blue murder!

You can only work with the baby you've got, not the hypothetical one in the book. I listen to podcasts to get to sleep, for other people that would be torture and they'd be awake all night, people (including babies) are just different.

I think a lot of people just end up working out something they can live with and that gets them enough sleep to function. Given that most teenagers aren't asking their mum to sleep in their bed I reckon it all comes out in the wash eventually.

I totally agree with you.

Op I think you just got ' lucky' with your second.

NameChange547 · 07/08/2023 14:56

I didn’t call it sleep training! My point is by getting my first into bad habits, I created a situation where sleep training (or years of chronic sleep deprivation) was inevitable. I’m hoping that this time round sleep training won’t be necessary because my second has been encouraged to self settle from the start 🤞🏻

OP posts:
parliamoglesga · 07/08/2023 15:02

RaidFlySpray · 31/07/2023 14:40

You sound smug. Why not accept that people do things differently? You're judgy.

Oh do give your head a wobble.

OP, I didn’t rock my kids to sleep. Just put them down and let them do what they needed to fall asleep. Was advised to just put them down after a lovely cuddle.

interestingly this advice came from an elderly family friend who has 5 children who’ve all turned out normal! My own mum did the same with me and it’s definitely easier.

I have a friend with a 3 year old who needs someone in with her to fall asleep every night and wakes up multiple times a night and again no sleep training of any sort. If it’s the hill you want to die on then fair enough but I don’t understand it either

NameChange547 · 07/08/2023 15:03

Is it though? Because I’m looking after my second perfectly well, responding to every cry, they’re happy and thriving, and still they have been encouraged to self settle (no sleep training at all, obviously I would never leave a newborn to cry) rather than being rocked or fed to sleep. There’s no need to create a food/sleep association in the first place.

OP posts:
BrawnWild · 07/08/2023 15:12

There is a question about when sleep training ends and child abuse starts.

If you have tried to resettle a screaming child with the method you are following, how long do you carry on? Is one hour of baby screaming slep training? Two hours? Four? Six? Is six hours child abuse?

Stompythedinosaur · 07/08/2023 15:13

Honestly, I cannot bear it when parents find one aspect of parenting goes smoothly and then then decide it is because of their superior parenting.

I think that if there was a single, reliable and non-damaging way to get dc to sleep through the night, any if the large numbers of scientific studies would have come up with it. The reality is that DC are different and need parents attuned to their needs, not keen to demonstrate on the internet how they are the ones who parent "correctly".

EmmaPaella · 07/08/2023 15:17

OP, your sample of two is not a scientific study.

I would have loved to have slept trained my eldest but she was impossible. If someone had offered to be my live in nanny, maybe I could have achieved it. In reality, most new parents are making it up as they go along with little guidance.

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 15:19

*There is a question about when sleep training ends and child abuse starts.

If you have tried to resettle a screaming child with the method you are following, how long do you carry on? Is one hour of baby screaming slep training? Two hours? Four? Six? Is six hours child abuse?*

OFGs. Who has even mentioned anything like this?

Please do one.

OP is talking about good habits from the off. NOT SLEEP TRAINING.

EmmaPaella · 07/08/2023 15:21

NameChange547 · 07/08/2023 15:03

Is it though? Because I’m looking after my second perfectly well, responding to every cry, they’re happy and thriving, and still they have been encouraged to self settle (no sleep training at all, obviously I would never leave a newborn to cry) rather than being rocked or fed to sleep. There’s no need to create a food/sleep association in the first place.

Surely you know that’s just good luck. If I’d have my second first, I too would have been smug thought sleep was easy.

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 15:22

Will people lay off 'sleep training? '

OP is talking about NOT needing to do sleep training but being mindful of having good sleep habits.

Omg. I get you OP.

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 15:35

My 4 were all different. 2 were good sleepers and 2 were not good. But all were decent sleepers by about 6 months.

But none of it was easy as such. It all took ( what I think are ) good habits and consistency and finding what worked for them.

One thing that was same across the board was that some things did not help them with good sleeping . And by no 4 I just never did them.

I had seen other friends still really struggling to get older babies and toddlers asleep and I avoided the things they did.

Lelophants · 07/08/2023 15:50

NameChange547 · 07/08/2023 15:03

Is it though? Because I’m looking after my second perfectly well, responding to every cry, they’re happy and thriving, and still they have been encouraged to self settle (no sleep training at all, obviously I would never leave a newborn to cry) rather than being rocked or fed to sleep. There’s no need to create a food/sleep association in the first place.

Well that’s great it worked for you. I can honestly tell you it does not for everyone and you sound very smug. I drove myself insane trying to do all those things you said and it STILL didn’t work. Turns out ds is neurodiverse. Good for you that you ‘sussed’ it but you’re sounding very arrogant.

theresapossuminthekitchen · 07/08/2023 16:02

NameChange547 · 31/07/2023 14:38

First time round I bought into the whole gentle sleep thing… there’s no such thing as making a rod for your own back, sleep training is evil, it’s completely developmentally normal for children not to sleep through the night or sleep in their own beds until they’re off at uni etc. etc. (hyperbole, obviously). Parents are supposed to be completely exhausted and if you can’t cope with that then you’re selfish and don’t love your child enough to just put up with it.

I fed to sleep, contact napped and co-slept for 7 months at which point I was a zombie of a human with no relationship, sex life or me time. My child was entirely reliant on me to fall and stay asleep and had no sleep skills whatsoever of their own. I then had to sleep train which was much harsher than I would have liked ideally, but I was at the end of my tether. My baby and I were both exhausted. I barely had the energy to interact with them and we were both grouchy and miserable all the time. Once they slept through the night we were both so much happier and my baby started to thrive.

We went away with friends a few months ago who are in a similar position with their 18 month old. She spends hours feeding to sleep and then spends every night on a floor bed with her child while her husband sleeps elsewhere. Child wakes up 4+ times per night to feed. Friend confided that the strain it’s putting on her relationship with her husband is such that she feels they could separate over it, and yet she is adamant not to sleep train because of the damage she feels it could do to her child. She isn’t planning on having any more children because of how hard sleep has been for them.

I’ve recently had my second and was determined to do things differently from the start - minimal feeding to sleep, baby puts themself to sleep (no need for leaving to cry because we’ve done it since day 1), cot naps about 75% of the time in the day and always at night, co-sleeping is rare. Baby naps well and is waking once to feed each night at 3 months old, occasionally sleeping through. Baby is well rested, calm and easy to comfort. It is so much easier this way. So, so much easier. I actually feel so angry that I wasted the first 7 months of my older child’s life being so exhausted, frustrated and unhappy.

Why do people continue to argue that you can’t create bad sleep habits for your child when you so clearly can? And by doing so you’re likely to be either setting yourself up for years of utter exhaustion, or for some very tough sleep training later down the line? It’s like a horrible trap that first time parents are being tricked into.

I’m aware this is going to be very unpopular with a lot of people, so I’m bracing myself for the anti sleep training brigade to come at me!

I had two children who were just like you describe - first a nightmare and second super easy. Only thing is, I did the same thing with both of them. If anything, the second one was more ‘attachment’ parented because he was exclusively breastfed on demand (and fed to sleep until 18mnths old) and lived in a sling/carrier for the first 9-10 months because of trying to juggle newborn and toddler.

Have a third and test your theory… but I bet that you’d get different results again.

Your friend has made choices, perhaps not the right ones, who knows, but that doesn’t mean that she’d have a different outcome and a perfect sleeper if she’d done it differently.

Fizbosshoes · 07/08/2023 18:08

First child was a pain about eating and sleeping
Second was so much easier about both and able to self settle
But that could be that I was more experienced/relaxed as a second time parent, second baby had to "fit in" with first child or they just had a different temperament....
Reality it was probably a mixture of all those factors.

fast forward 10+ years, now kids are teens and the one who wanted to be in my bed every night hates all physical contact and DC2 is much more tactile

NameChange547 · 20/08/2023 14:28

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 15:22

Will people lay off 'sleep training? '

OP is talking about NOT needing to do sleep training but being mindful of having good sleep habits.

Omg. I get you OP.

Thank you. I’m literally talking about not sleep training 🙄 I haven’t sleep trained my newborn…

OP posts:
Girliefriendlikespuppies · 20/08/2023 15:01

I completely agree with you op.

But there are a lot of martyrs who believe your needs as a mother are just not important.

If you challenge the mums who feed to sleep/co-sleep/never leave their baby to cry you're called judgmental and smug 🤷‍♀️

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