To say that you definitely CAN make a rod for your own back when it comes to sleep, and it’s unreasonable to tell first time parents otherwise?

[NameChange547]

First time round I bought into the whole gentle sleep thing… there’s no such thing as making a rod for your own back, sleep training is evil, it’s completely developmentally normal for children not to sleep through the night or sleep in their own beds until they’re off at uni etc. etc. (hyperbole, obviously). Parents are supposed to be completely exhausted and if you can’t cope with that then you’re selfish and don’t love your child enough to just put up with it.

I fed to sleep, contact napped and co-slept for 7 months at which point I was a zombie of a human with no relationship, sex life or me time. My child was entirely reliant on me to fall and stay asleep and had no sleep skills whatsoever of their own. I then had to sleep train which was much harsher than I would have liked ideally, but I was at the end of my tether. My baby and I were both exhausted. I barely had the energy to interact with them and we were both grouchy and miserable all the time. Once they slept through the night we were both so much happier and my baby started to thrive.

We went away with friends a few months ago who are in a similar position with their 18 month old. She spends hours feeding to sleep and then spends every night on a floor bed with her child while her husband sleeps elsewhere. Child wakes up 4+ times per night to feed. Friend confided that the strain it’s putting on her relationship with her husband is such that she feels they could separate over it, and yet she is adamant not to sleep train because of the damage she feels it could do to her child. She isn’t planning on having any more children because of how hard sleep has been for them.

I’ve recently had my second and was determined to do things differently from the start - minimal feeding to sleep, baby puts themself to sleep (no need for leaving to cry because we’ve done it since day 1), cot naps about 75% of the time in the day and always at night, co-sleeping is rare. Baby naps well and is waking once to feed each night at 3 months old, occasionally sleeping through. Baby is well rested, calm and easy to comfort. It is so much easier this way. So, so much easier. I actually feel so angry that I wasted the first 7 months of my older child’s life being so exhausted, frustrated and unhappy.

Why do people continue to argue that you can’t create bad sleep habits for your child when you so clearly can? And by doing so you’re likely to be either setting yourself up for years of utter exhaustion, or for some very tough sleep training later down the line? It’s like a horrible trap that first time parents are being tricked into.

I’m aware this is going to be very unpopular with a lot of people, so I’m bracing myself for the anti sleep training brigade to come at me!

Honestly educate your self on the biological normal behaviour of a newborn carry mammal which of course a human baby is, most of the main breastfeeding charities run online training about the early days NCT, BFN, ABM, LLL, all of this list you have made is only going to stress you out and sabotage your breastfeeding goals before you start.

sleeping wise you will find your way like all these families are, some do differently but it has to be right for you and your family.

good luck with your baby

Once I got past cluster feeding and my milk had established I fed my son every 2 hours during the day to get all his calories in to help him sleep through the night.

Before my son learnt to self settle I fed him to sleep and its okay. He never used me as a dummy. I sometimes still do it now. Its no trouble at all. I always give him a boob before bed or a nap. Sometimes I don't tho

I feel people who sleep trained and it worked are a bit unfair trying to push other people to do it. You never hear from the people who left their baby to cry and it still didn't improve their sleep (of course there are more 'gentle' sleep training than CC).

We tried it (sleep training) with No. 2 and it really didn't work. We preserved for weeks. It was horrible (I didn't want to do it but at the end of my tether and hoping for this magical fix that so many promise). I was utterly relieved when we finally stopped.
It appeared to work for the first couple of nights, but then went rapidly downhill.

My first was an average sleeper and self-settled early on (about 4 weeks) with very minimal encouragement. And napped independently from 6 months. He was by no means a super sleeper and we had ups and downs, but it was manageable.

My second screamed blue murder whenever she was put down and woke approximately hourly for the first year. And not much better for the second year. Or the third. She now goes to bed by herself, and we co-sleep for some of the night. She used to need cuddles all night, now she's just happy if someone is in the room. She also self-settles and can usually just be tucked back into bed if she does need an adult in the night (until early hours of the morning when it is often easier just to lie down with her). She's independent, confident and happy, and sleeps "better" than her big brother now in that she doesn't wake us up at the crack of dawn (brother is a lark). She likes a lazy lie in.

I honestly think it's not as black and white as the OP states. We didn't really do anything significantly different with either child. They are just different people. And sleep training isn't a magic bullet for all babies that will fix all sleep issues, if only the silly parents would just give it a try. 🙄

Nothing is a magic bullet to be honest.

@Rasplolly

My advice to you is do what you want. It almost certainly will make little difference to how well they sleep, but trying to force routine/ etc when you/they are not ready leads to stress and a feeling of failing when things (naturally) deviate.

If you have a child who thrives on routine, that's fine, but equally well you may have a child who doesn't.

If you are breastfeeding, to get it established you'll want to feed when the baby wants to feed. One of mine liked a big feed, so 20 minutes on one side then twenty minutes on the other. Another one would take less than five minutes and nothing on earth would get them feeding if they didn't want to. And the third hated changing sides in the middle of a feed and would refuse if I swapped side in the middle.
What works with one doesn't work with another.
There will also be times when they have a growth spurt and need a few extra feeds as your milk supply increases. And times when they're no so hungry and don't want so much.

All the things you have put are suggestions. If it's what you want, then do it, but don't feel that if you don't then all is lost.
I fed all mine to sleep in the early days. You'll be delighted to hear that I don't now. Although ds might appreciate a hot chocolate just before bed (he's 16) and a snack. But actually they naturally stopped feeding to sleep with no stress on my part. I partially co-slept only with ds. He did tell me at about 2yo that he was going to come into my bed every morning until he was 28yo. I'm not sure what was meant to happen at 28yo, but I can assure you that more than 20 years before that age, he gave up normally even coming first thing in the morning for a hug.
And actually the majority of times he came into my bed was when he had an ear infection (about half the time until he had grommets) so really I'd rather he was comforted next to me than lying in pain. That way we both got some sleep.

Just relax and do what you want. Don't worry that if you don't do it right, then you'll never get the baby to sleep/eat/do something! They adapt and you will adapt.
You've got here lots of what people have tried, and found worked for them. I'll guarantee that every post here that says "I did this and my child slept because of it" there is someone saying "I did exactly the same and my child didn't sleep"-and vice versa.

with my second child, she went in the cot always. If she cried, I shushed and rubbed her back until she fell asleep. Gradually I withdrew that and she would fall asleep independently, pretty much from a few months in. Ideal.

That's pretty much what we did. I won't lie, there were evenings where I spent an hour lying in darkness on the bedroom floor with one arm through the cot stroking DS's until he settled. But he's generally been a good sleeper since - albeit up with the larks....

You need to do what works in your house.

If you only have one it's going to be different to if you have other children. If you have to work or have routines like siblings activities or school it will be different.

I can see how that's not very helpful to people looking for guidance though.

My best friend had a baby about a year before me and had a nightmare getting her LO to bed at night. I was aware of that happening and tried to bear that in mind when I had my own.

It is really really hard if your child won't go to bed at bedtime. It can break you. I saw that close up.

And I have done hours and hours, months and months of exactly that with my youngest two children.

They still woke up 846289 times.

They still didnt sleep through until school age.

They were both breastfed until 3.5 (not to sleep of course! Hence the patting and shushing!)

My point is, a method that works for some babies and parents, won't work for others.

But most parents that it does work for, would
never believe that.

I tried everything to get DS1 to go to sleep independently (short of CIO), bought the books, tried the tips, paid £400 for a sleep trainer, spent hours shushing in the dark, etc. None of it worked and I felt like a massive failure because I couldn't get him to do what he was "supposed" to do.

Gave up on it all and accepted he was a massive cling on and went with it. I got more sleep but he remained a rubbish sleeper! Dropped naps entirely before 2, up at dawn, has never needed much sleep.

It's not straightforward, it's a nuanced thing with lots of factors that come into play, not least the temperament and personality of both the baby and its parents. I have two DC, that doesn't make me an expert on babies generally.

Everyone is pretty much just doing their best, I don't think anyone sets out to be a "martyr" they're just trying to get through and do the best for their baby and family as a whole (and hindsight is a wonderful thing!)

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER I am nearly finished BF my son but I will hopefully have a 2nd baby next year. That 4 hour feeding, what do you do if they are going crazy? Like DS would nuzzle for the boob all the time or cry for it.

Yep similar story here (although I bf for 8 months) DD didn't sleep in her own bed all night until age 6.
There were so many stages - next to the bed/cot with patting and shushing, commando crawling out, at the end of the bed, in the doorway, outside the doorway.....and that's was just bedtime....and then they still woke up to come into our room

A friend got a puppy and was going to crate train it. Another friend asked how it was going and she said she caved in and took it to their room on night 2 because it was crying so much. Same friend had told me years earlier she "wouldn't put up with it" when I told her DD came into our bed each night.

Yeah I mean I have 2 kids and the older one did all the things of your second and the younger one still spends half his time in my bed aged 3. Both breast fed on demand until almost 2, no sleep training, treated the same. It’s kid dependant I recon.

@Rasplolly in my experience of 3DC nothing makes a difference. They either sleep well or they don’t. They either sleep on you or are happy to be put down- I’ve had both types! Their personalities now reflect the type of baby they were, two are chilled and easy to sleep anywhere while one is the fussiest child and was the fussiest sleeper too.

Enjoy your baby and go with the flow, those snuggly newborn contact naps with a box set and a cuppa are the best part.

OP 100%

DC1 - terrible sleeper, trained him at 5 months, took two nights, been a brilliant sleeper since then, he's now 5.
DC2 - a dream, would nod off herself from 6 weeks so no need to train
DC3 - somewhere between DC1 and 2 but only 8 weeks old at the moment, we absolutely will be sleep training if he needs it too.

I cannot bear the guilt and pseudo-science reeled off by the "gentle parenting" brigade.

Or people who after years of bad sleep try to sleep train and then wonder why it doesn't work - you have to do it young not when they're 3 years old!

Smug mothers are the worst.

I did the same with all three. Let them sleep with me and breast fed.

number one slept through the night in his cot from 11 weeks

number two is 12 now and I swear still never bloody sleeps.

number three slept well for first 6 months, had 6 months of sleeping badly and has slept through night since.

It’s totally down to the child IMO

@Fuckingfumin honestly, I do believe you. Every kid has their own challenges. I lucked out on sleeping and weaning but my kid wasn't potty trained until almost 4....poop everywhere for years....

That made me chuckle just due to the irony,
all three of mine were incredibly easy to
potty train!

That pretty much sums up parenting, some bits a crap, some bits are good, no one knows what they are doing, we all know what we are doing, the kids rule.

Smug mothers are the worst.
Agreed. Anything that's delivered with that smug sort of head-tilty "oh you breastfeed and have a baby that likes being held, no wonder you're exhausted if you're choosing not to sleep. Stop creating bad sleep associations, get a sleep consultant and that'll teach the baby who's boss" / "oh you didn't wake up with you child every 3.5 minutes and didn't shove a boob in them at the first whimper? No wonder your child is silent at night. They've been discovering that instead of caring for them, their parents are never going to come for them when they cry" is going to get people's backs up.

Most people are learning about their children and their personalities.

It's hardly surprising babies might seek security and love in different ways. Adults have different preferred sleeping styles, clothing levels, quilt thickness, room temperature, levels of physical contact, whether to have water by the bed or not etc.

Disagree . For me co sleeping and breastfeeding to sleep allowed me to get alot more sleep with my first . At 18 months I had enough at that point and went cold turkey and he slept through since then I didn't have to sleep train ..only thing I'll say is I had to stay next to him till he falls asleep but I'm okay with that and if I wasn't I would change it .
So instead of judging which method is better all parents should do what makes them happy and if they are unhappy like the couple in your post they should change it just like you did .

Didn't meet any of these smug mothers in real life. Only on MN.

I found most people kept pretty schtum whatever their baby was doing. My SiL wasn't getting any sleep for years with her 3 but there was always a reason. Nothing to do with her.

I would never comment to anyone about their baby and their habits either.

I think there's a real omertà of silence in real life and probably why everyone relies so much on books and baby gurus. And probably why people fall so hard for what they read.

I was so tired with my DC that I could have died at times but I loved feeding them to sleep, co sleeping and everything else. I still enjoy cuddling them to sleep now and if they want to pop into my bed they still can. They are well rounded and wonderfully independent children so no, I wouldn't change a thing about how I parented (and still parent) my children - I tended to their needs and whilst yes, I was bloody knackered I just didn't want to sleep train and so I didn't.

If a parent asked me for my opinion I would say I don't like CIO but only if asked, as long as people are not neglecting and abusing their children it's none of my business, just like it's none of their business how I choose to parent mine.

Agree with this.

I was almost the opposite of the OP. With my first she cried constantly in her cot. Cosleeping saved my sanity.
With my second I almost expected the same. However she was the complete opposite and happily slept in her cot from day one. I remember telling DH in disbelief she's asleep as soon as her put her down.

A friend of mine has had 4 DC the first 3 apparently were all relatively good sleepers. Her fourth gave her a complete shock apparently. By the fourth I'm sure she felt capable. Quite simply all babies are different.

It's better now IMO.

Back in the day without the internet, people could only go by either instinct of advice from relatives and friends, which often wasn't safe. If you're a new parent and struggling with sleep now you can go online, read a range of perspectives, look up the evidence (there are even books that do that for you) and make your own decision, as well as finding supportive spaces to help with it.

Some people get easy babies and think others 'overcomplicate' things. I've seen a fair few people who had straightforward births, babies who nursed effectively right away, slept longer chunks within the first few months, who look down on other parents who struggle with things like feeding, sleeping etc. as overcomplicating matters.

Surely small babies by design are not meant to sleep for large chunks of time because they need frequent feeding, at least for the first few months? A baby waking a few times a night to feed is not necessarily a bad sleeper it's just that as adults were are used to longer periods of uninterrupted sleep and a baby waking us is bad for our own night time seep pattern.
While the sleep deprivation was a massive shock esp for first baby, I don't think its especially martyr-ish to accept that at least for several months, a baby might wake frequently for feeds or comfort.

I saw a programme once about sleep training and they put a very young baby in its cot in a dark room with the door closed at 7pm and then listened to it cry , on a baby listener. I couldn't see the point of the baby listener if they weren't planning to react to its crying or give any feeds or comfort (I know this is an extreme way of sleep training)