To be angry my daughter was made to kiss a family friend?

[Garethkeenansstapler]

Something that’s been playing on my mind for a few weeks.

DH took our daughter, 3, to visit his mum and dad who live locally. Their friends happened to be there (same couple their age, DH has known them since he was little) and DH mentioned when he got back ‘DD even gave Pete a kiss when she left’.

Now DD is confident but would never kiss a man she doesn’t know willingly. It turns out they had ‘encouraged’ her to give him a kiss and she had ‘eventually’ done it.

I don’t know why but it’s made me really angry. I asked if he would make our baby DS kiss him in future and DH said ‘of course not’ but couldn’t really justify why not. We all know of course 🙄

I would of course expect DD to say goodbye or wave to people as they were leaving, as I think manners matter. But the thought of her being made to kiss old men she doesn’t know to make them happy makes my blood boil.

It’s clear DH thinks I’m overreacting, so I’m going to show him this thread if the response shows I’m not BU. So please lay out why this was so inappropriate of him and that I’m not some neurotic madwoman for being angry about it.

Thanks x

Does he not realise all he is doing is conditioning his daughter from a young age that her body isn't really hers? It's actually there for a man's enjoyment and she gets no say.

Makes me sick.

No thank you - you’re completely reasonable!

Boundaries and consent are so important from an early age. I have a 3 year old DS and he’s very affectionate with us. Anyone, even family have been told that they must ask his consent even for things like hugs, unless of course he was to initiate it himself.
Some of them are still iffy about it by standing right in his personal space, arms outstretched in his face going CAN I HAVE A CUDDLE or attempting to cuddle him whilst asking but it’s important as parents to know that children understand boundaries and they should never be forced into personal contact with anyone.

I’m a bit too OTT as I don’t understand the need to pass your newborn baby around people just for their own enjoyment rather than being of any benefit to the baby but, I am an ex prison officer so I’ve seen the worst of the world and it changes you!

I wonder how many ofus on heresharea memory of some vile old man's tongue being shoved into our mouth on just such an occasion

AND NOT SAYING ANYTHING because we were mortified and shocked and confused and he was your Dad's colleague and anyway shouldn't we take it as kind of a complement? Even though it felt like the exact opposite? . 😭🤢🤮

(I think I was probably a bit older than 3, but <shudder>)

Willing to bet this has never happened to your husband OP. Perhaps he should have a think about what it actually feels like.

Sorry about my non-functioning space bar!

My kids would never be asked to kiss a stranger. With close family members I say "we are going now would you like to give x a hug, kiss or high five". My 2 don't like kisses and usually opt for a high five. My family took the piss in the beginning but now understand. I was sexually abused by a close relative as a child so my kids know about pantasaurus. They know that they don't keep secrets from mummy and daddy. I think you need to be very careful what messages you give nor only to girls but boys as well. My relative sexaully abuse a whole generation of children of both genders.

Point out to your OH the mixed messages it sends to your daughter about consent, which doesn't just apply to adults. But also the fact his son wouldn't be expected to would anger me even more.
If he's still not getting it then the next time you visit with someone keep encouraging him to give them a kiss on the cheek before you leave and I'd say he will get the message.

Kids don't have the vocabulary to express why these things make them uncomfortable, so it's up to the adults.

I was forced to kiss adults who visited. My mother made me. I was punished if I refused. More than that, DM would often strip us to our knickers in a shop to try on something rather than bring us to a changing room, even if we were distressed at being seen in our underwear. Same with the beach. stripped us bare to dry us in front of everyone -as we were only kids.

I was sexually assaulted by a family friend when I was 8, had a friends father try it on with me when I was 15, and had a string of relationships where I was an utter door mat for the nicer men, and abused by the less nice. I've also been raped. I was a sitting duck for predators because I had never had bodily autonomy and I had no idea how to attain that as a teen and a young adult. I'd never been taught how.

Therapy was illuminating. It could literally be traced all the way back to my bodily autonomy being overridden.

DS has never been encouraged or forced to have physical contact with any adult. Ever. Even relatives.

Your DH needs to ask himself that if DD's kissing Pete is entirely non sexual, then why is it only girls that are required to kiss older men. He needs to face the answer for this.

I remember being made to kiss people as a child. I hated it.

'Encouraging' means that he was overriding her boundaries and socialising her as a girl child to show affection on demand.

Exactly. I remember my (otherwise brilliant) dad one day out of nowhere telling me to give the taxi driver a kiss to say thank you - he had done us some favour or other. I outright refused and my dad got very cross (being contradicted in front of a stranger) and I yelled at him to kiss the man himself if he wanted someone to do it.

Having to kiss men is very much weirder/grosser than having to usually be kissed by your granny's friends Gladys and Deirdre which there was a LOT of when I was a child. I'm so glad I had the confidence to say no (and my dad never asked me to do something that that again) but that's probably because I wasn't started as young as the OP's daughter.

Ugh, the ‘I suppose I’m a monster then’ navel-gazing wankery is manipulative so that you'll feel bad and apologise to him. My mum does this when pulled up on her (frequent) bad behaviour and it needs to be challenged or ignored - never pandered to.

I was forced to kiss my great aunt when I was much older than your DD and I can remember the feeling of dread I had in my stomach. Even my great aunt pushed for a kiss and when I hesitantly offered her a cheek, she joked "is it because I have a moustache?" and kissed me on the lips.

It's concerning that your DH doesn't see how gross the Old Man-Little Girl dynamic is. He admitted that he wouldn't force a boy to kiss a grown man so does he just want his daughter to be servile and people pleasing, letting men trample all over her boundaries? And does he want to be the man who starts that chain of events?

Defo the MIL come to tell us how wrong we are. Read the thread. Read the accounts of women who were raped and sexually assaulted because an abuser took advantage of their lack of boundaries. Then fuck off back to the stone age where you belong.

Did your husband feel he had to give Pete a kiss too to say goodbye? Thought not.

(Sarcasm directed at your husband, not you OP!)

YADNBU

Well said bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg 👏👏👏

@KarmaStar showing that some paedophiles are happy to disclose themselves!

OP, you are obviously not being unreasonable. Do not apologise to your husband to get him out of the sulk. He needs to apologise to your DD, let her know his and GM’s actions were wrong and he won’t let a repeat happen again.

OP’s husband - time to step up and be a man. Put your daughter first and lead by example to show her that she gets to choose who touches/kisses/hugs her. Shame on you putting a grown man’s feelings above hers.

will your pil wonder at all why youre always there and if so will you tell them

doesnt sound like agood relationship anyway

Would really love it if your husband, after reading the comments, would care to come on and comment himself, to explain why everyone else is wrong?

YANBU
I'm angry that your daughter has been put in that position by her father

I was also made to kiss and hug an array of my stupid mothers friends and family. She wouldn't allow me to refuse, like I was bringing some kind of shame on her if I did.

Needless to say I absolutely hated it. I was so embarrassed and uncomfortable and felt like all eyes were on me. It all felt so forced and that I was doing it for someone else's benefit - which I was.

I still get really quite angry thinking about it, this has been quite triggering!

I'm sorry that your husband doesn't get it. Probably because as a male, he was never put in that position.

I think you need to look at what personal boundaries you want her to have in place over her body and choices when she is older. Does your husband want his daughter to feed that she can't really say no if an older man wants her to do something she wasn't initially comfortable with and kiss him? Or does he want her to feel empowered enough to recognize when she is not comfortable with it? Those are the decision making qualities he is moulding now. None of us would want our daughter kissing an older man because she felt like she had to.

From now on, you should insist that he kisses whatever male you are talking to goodbye. Exactly the way DH/MIL cajoles and bullies your DD into it. Maybe if he gets put on the spot the way a toddler was he might get it into his head how shitty it feels.

Thank you everyone. He hasn’t read the thread so I screenshotted and sent a selection of responses to him to see why this has angered me so much. DD will not be spending time alone with PIL for the foreseeable and I’ve made this clear as well. Thank you for your input and support.

One of the reasons DH is annoyed is because he said I sounded ‘gleeful’ at him being ripped down by strangers on the Internet.

I said you know what? I am gleeful, or at least feeling very vindicated. Men can make you feel ‘crazy’ or ‘hysterical’ when it’s just them versus you, so it’s incredibly vindicating to have so many voices backing me up and proving it’s him in the wrong.

I’m totally baffled as to why he would make your DD kiss him but not your baby DS??! Can someone please explain this thinking to me?

He might have been able to ignore you or minimise to you, @Garethkeenansstapler, but more difficult to ignore (if he has the courage to read the whole thread) of how an action he and his mother thought of little account could really affect his/your child from her early years right through adulthood. I really hope he gets it. 🌹

One of the reasons DH is annoyed is because he said I sounded ‘gleeful’ at him being ripped down by strangers on the Internet.

This is more tone policing. You're right, so he focusses on how you say things because he cannot counter what you've said.

Pic = your DH

You are absolutely right, OP. Allowing people to instil the message that she should ignore her own rights and minimise her own discomfort in order to make men other people happy? Your DH can fuck off with that.