To be angry my daughter was made to kiss a family friend?

[Garethkeenansstapler]

Something that’s been playing on my mind for a few weeks.

DH took our daughter, 3, to visit his mum and dad who live locally. Their friends happened to be there (same couple their age, DH has known them since he was little) and DH mentioned when he got back ‘DD even gave Pete a kiss when she left’.

Now DD is confident but would never kiss a man she doesn’t know willingly. It turns out they had ‘encouraged’ her to give him a kiss and she had ‘eventually’ done it.

I don’t know why but it’s made me really angry. I asked if he would make our baby DS kiss him in future and DH said ‘of course not’ but couldn’t really justify why not. We all know of course 🙄

I would of course expect DD to say goodbye or wave to people as they were leaving, as I think manners matter. But the thought of her being made to kiss old men she doesn’t know to make them happy makes my blood boil.

It’s clear DH thinks I’m overreacting, so I’m going to show him this thread if the response shows I’m not BU. So please lay out why this was so inappropriate of him and that I’m not some neurotic madwoman for being angry about it.

Thanks x

I don't understand why it's different for a boy, so weird.

YADNBU. I remember having to do this. And in my case one of those family members I had to kiss goodbye actually was the man sexually abusing me.
I always insisted my DC used their manners and said/waved goodbye. And when they were older "thankyou for having us" or whatever.
But absolutely never insisted on physical contact.
I'm delighted to see DDs have carried this on with GC. The boys as well as the girls.
The confidence of understanding their rights around their own body is one of the best gifts we can give our kids. I'd be really angry if my DH displayed wilful ignorance around this.

Just to clarify I feel no anger or annoyance whatsoever towards Pete. He probably felt a little awkward himself

Don’t be feel sorry for Pete. He’s an adult he didn’t have to ‘play’ along. Waiting for a small girl to kiss him. Fucking gross.

Feel sorry for your daughter having a dad who doesn’t give a shit about her well-being.

Feel sorry for yourself for having a child with a man that puts his own daughter in that situation. At 3. Disgusting

Can he not see a link between little girls being made to kiss and hug people they don't want to, 'so they're not sad', and teens going further than they want to 'because you would if you really loved me' or 'its so frustrating for me when you stop' and grown women ending up in often quite dangerous situations because they don't want to offend or upset someone by saying no and don't think a no would be accepted without question...?

the fact that he said he wouldn't expect ds to do the same and couldn't explain why should have made him realise that he was in the wrong! If you can't justify your rationale how can you stand by it?

Because this world is made for them and their wants and needs.

Whether the OP's DH consciously knows that, he subconsciously knows it. Because he's grown up in a world for him.

A good man would take this as a learning opportunity and finally see what we do. I hope he's a good man. There's too much wrong with this world for women to tackle it alone - we need supportive allies.

He's teaching his daughter that she must ignore her own cautious instincts and 'be nice'. His son does not have to be nice because boys are taught to put themselves first. Is this what he wants her to learn?

Body anatomy doesn't start when kids get past a certain age.
If your DH wouldn't be happy for a stranger to walk up to your DD in the street and randomly hug her, he shouldn't be happy to force her to do such a thing because he knows them.

There's no benefit to your DD kissing this man goodbye, but it will teach your DD to ignore her own feelings, her own discomfort and understanding of situations because she's 'expected' to behave in an intimate way with other person.
And it is intimate being made to kiss someone no matter what age.

Your DH should be showing your DS the way by not forcing your DD to do such things. Everyone should have a say over their own body.

Absolutely this.

I mean your DH already knows the answer. He knows why he would make your DD kiss someone when she would not usually be inclined to. He also knows why he wouldn't do it to your DS.

He sees females as support humans, there to enhance the lives of men at the cost of their own wants, needs and best interests .

Far from being benign or ill judged, his behaviour is actually damaging. He's training her to ignore her own instincts.

I hope he'll pause and reflect on why he thinks it's okay to treat his children with such differing levels of respect.

I always just say to DS say goodbye to X, he will decide how, often he'll give a hug/kiss if it's someone he knows well, sometimes a wave/high five, he did go through a phase of handshakes which whilst perhaps overly formal actually went down quite well with older friends and family members. Children should absolutely have a choice about physical affection

It's that awful blurry line where young girls say yes because they feel like they have to, but inwardly, they're screaming no. It sounds like they've consented, but they haven't, not really.

Some boys know how much pressure they've put on them and that it's wrong. Those are predators.

Some don't actually realise what they've done (when you're used to people saying yes to you all the time because you're male, why would you even question it?). I think that situation is saddest because both parties lose something of themselves in that encounter.

We need to teach our girls to stand up for themselves and not just do what they feel like they should be doing to be good girls. It's OK to not feel comfortable and to say stop. It doesn't matter how much a no would upset or frustrate the man; our girls need to know that they have the right to stand up for themselves.

It goes further than just bodily autonomy too. This attitude of always putting the man first and the man as more important is why we put up with so much shit at work and have a gender pay gap. We don't see our own value, and we accept so much less than we deserve.

Your DD has value. It's so important she knows just how much.

It's not OK to expect girls or boys to kiss people. Full stop. I thought things would change for the better post pandemic, but obviously not.

Not ok at all.

Your husband must be on the dim side as i think it is widely known for many years that forcing any child to kiss anyone is really not on.

Confusing and unpleasant for your daughter.

Your husband should know better.

My late Dad had awful memories of being made to kiss family members when he was little - in the 1920s!

He vowed to himself as a little boy that if he ever had his own children in the future he’d never inflict that on them with others. Nor did he ever insist on being kissed. It would have given him the total horrors.

He was a lovely man. Because he respected children’s autonomy they gravitated towards him.

Sounds like DH can't be trusted to take your daughter out alone given he doesn't seem to have her best interests at heart. I hope you have another convo on this and he gets it. He'd be better off teaching her to punch back in this type of situation- in fact he'd be doing her a world of good with a bit of play-fighting.

Dear God, I grew up in the 80's and my parents, including my Dad knew not to force children to kiss adults.

We didn't kiss family members, less alone strangers.

Tells your daughter her feelings don't matter. Her own Dad.

Poor thing.

Do you think it gave your DH any pause for thought when you asked about why it was different for DS OP? I'd really love to know his reasoning beyond 'it just is' tbh

The thought of it makes me want to vomit.

Let's hope " his boy " likes football ,cricket or rugby or how will he cope !

So he's starting his daughter on the " be nice " to people road is he .

Hopefully he's an intelligent man and will take on board what you've said.

Your sexist DH doesn't have his DD's best interests at heart, he should be ashamed of himself to treat his DD like this.

YUCK. Absolutely not ok. As above, consent and bodily autonomy start young. If my daughter doesn’t want to kiss anyone goodbye (whether that’s grandad, me, her dad, let along some bloody stranger!!) we say ‘that’s ok, can you wave instead?’ If anyone tried to make her I’d be stepping in straight away to tell them why it wasn’t ok. Can’t believe your partner didn’t do this for her.

As others have said, I also remember being made to do this as a little girl, it was extremely uncomfortable.

Yes. Same argument flipped over: FiL gets all silly about physical affection, even hugs, between male family members. Says things like 'I'm not into men'. Next time, I'm going to ask him if he considers hugging his DiL (me) or a hypothetical DGD to be a sexual event.

Your H would have been right at home in the sexist 70s.

So many disturbing threads on MN about girls who were forced/urged to touch/kiss male relatives/family friends,

I had the same in the 80s. I felt helpless as a 12yo.

YANBU. I remember being about 7 when I realised I could hide in the loo when people were leaving and wait until they were gone to avoid being forced to kiss various uncles. I also remember around the same age, being forced (by my DM) to kiss a boy from my class on the lips because he had mumps and she wanted me to catch it. I have daughters, I can't even begin to understand how she thought this was ok. I hope your DH reads this thread and safeguards your DD better in the future.