To be angry my daughter was made to kiss a family friend?

[Garethkeenansstapler]

Something that’s been playing on my mind for a few weeks.

DH took our daughter, 3, to visit his mum and dad who live locally. Their friends happened to be there (same couple their age, DH has known them since he was little) and DH mentioned when he got back ‘DD even gave Pete a kiss when she left’.

Now DD is confident but would never kiss a man she doesn’t know willingly. It turns out they had ‘encouraged’ her to give him a kiss and she had ‘eventually’ done it.

I don’t know why but it’s made me really angry. I asked if he would make our baby DS kiss him in future and DH said ‘of course not’ but couldn’t really justify why not. We all know of course 🙄

I would of course expect DD to say goodbye or wave to people as they were leaving, as I think manners matter. But the thought of her being made to kiss old men she doesn’t know to make them happy makes my blood boil.

It’s clear DH thinks I’m overreacting, so I’m going to show him this thread if the response shows I’m not BU. So please lay out why this was so inappropriate of him and that I’m not some neurotic madwoman for being angry about it.

Thanks x

Im 99% sure it was MIL, who would’ve seen it as ‘cute’ and ‘charming’ to see her granddaughter performing like a show pony

Sometimes, women's worst enemies are other women acting like the Aunts from Handmaid's Tale to uphold the patriarchy.

It's heartening to see a thread of posters denouncing this regressive crap.

She was saying the other day how poor Prince Andrew has been maliciously smeared by ‘girls who knew exactly what they were doing’. Just to give you a flavour.

OP, just wondering - I know you shouldn't have to, it should be your DH, but it looks like he's not going to - are you going to lose your shit with talk to your MIL about it?

We take the approach that bodily autonomy for children is just as (if not even more) important as it is for adults. We bring ds up knowing that if he doesn't want to have physical contact with someone then he doesn't have to and that person has to respect that he's said no. This is doubly important with girls who grow up into young women who are taught to ignore their gut instinct and put up with various levels of discomfort to be polite. We will offer our son to wave hug or high five when he's old enough to pick. It teaches him consent and bodily respect. There's no point in teaching your dd about bodily respect and personal space and consent if you then teach her to ignore that with random people of your choosing despite her protestations. Plus let's not forget that children are most likely to be abused within their social circle so it's not enough to say oh it's just family so it's different. I think if someone is insisting then you've a fabulous teachable moment to show your child you have her back first and you'll model assertiveness and how to say "I've already said no, you need to back off now". You're absolutely right in your instincts op!

My "D"GM was like that, I remember her saying that women who wore short skirts should expect to be raped. Turned out that she'd basically handed her DD1 over to her predatory music teacher to molest in the hope that they would get married some day. Her bullshit was very damaging to her DCs as well as me and my DSis.

I recommend that your DCs do not see your PILs without you present. Women like that have internalised the Aunts stuff completely and will hurt your DCs.

Why has this been playing on your mind for a few weeks?

Did you address why you felt uncomfortable to your H at the time? Maybe if you both have different views on this then, have a chat about it together so that you are on the same page.

To me tbh - it is a non issue. If my kids didnt want to kiss people then they didnt. But, i also dont think it was anything that is going to damage her for life, giving a family friend who she has known for years a kiss.

No, for 2 reasons. Firstly because hell will freeze over before she admits it was even slightly inappropriate (we’ve had many such ‘debates’/arguments over things like this, she thinks it’s all woke snowflakery).

Two because I actually think she would go out of her way to have friends round for a repeat performance just to ‘one up’ me in her mind. Letting her know I have an issue with it would just throw her a bone to ‘prove I’m being ridiculous’ and that she won’t be told what to do.

So, the only way to ensure this doesn’t happen again is to never leave DD with PIL and DH alone 🤷🏼‍♀️ DH finds it very hard to stand up to his mum, and I have no doubt if this all happened again he wouldn’t stick up for DD and just wouldn’t tell me after.

Horrible, all of it.

Prince Andrew is an absolute disgrace.

Surely you aren't thinking that your PIL or your H who was present at the kiss goodbye is anything like the Prince Andrew situation and the disgusting things he has done?

She hasn’t known them for years. She’s met them a couple of times, the first time so long ago she won’t have recognised him.

I did say at the time but he was all ‘you’re being dramatic’ so I’ve silently simmered for a while and last night decided he needs the ‘show him this thread’ treatment.

Hopefully the very sad and shocking stories that have been kindly shared here for the purposes of education will make him think twice about making his small daughter kiss old men when she doesn’t want to because ‘otherwise they will be sad, they want a kiss’. Yuck.

💐. She sounds like a peach. (So does he, to be perfectly honest.)

No absolutely not. I was just giving an example of MIL’s views of consent.

It can be hard for women to identify boundary violations at the time because we are trained to ignore our discomfort. It can takes years, never mind weeks, to identify what was wrong, as I found out when sexually assaulted at aged eight.

The problem isn't that the girl kissed the man, it's that she didn't want to and was ordered to anyway.

Did you even read the thread? @Bellaboo01 Are you the OP's husband or MIL here to tell us all how wrong we are?

I mean, i would be very much of the opinion that if I spoke to my mil directly about something I felt that seriously about and she tried to argue my response would be- you're entitled to your opinion but it doesn't matter because I am the parent end of. If there was a repeat (which there likely will be anyway let's be realistic) then I think you've your ammunition to say- we spoke about this and I was very very clear. If you can't respect our parenting decisions regarding our children then you don't see them alone. Dh needs to back you 100% though, it's unreasonable for him to side with his parents over his Co parent.

Your husband, whether intentional or not, is simply teaching his daughter that if men (or anyone for that matter) asks her to kiss them (or do something else that makes her uncomfortable) she has to do it, even if she doesn't want to, to make sure the man is happy. She also knows that her DF and other family members won't support her or listen to her when she's making it clear she doesn't want to kiss someone and will instead just make her do it anyway. Her own DH won't have her back when she is telling him she does not want to do something, and her DH will make her kiss that person regardless of whether or not his daughter wants to just to make sure the man is happy that he got his kiss from a little girl. Your daughter has been directly shown by your DH (who I hope is still reading the replies) that saying "no" to men is not the correct response and instead, she should ignore her own discomfort in order to do what the man wants to keep him happy.

It doesn't matter whether or not the man is a "nonce" or not, the fact your DH showed his daughter that she isn't allowed to say "no" to men who want to kiss her is the issue. He demonstrated to her that her boundary wasn't important, he didn't feel the need to listen to it, she was shown that there was no point in standing up for herself as she was made to do it anyway and her discomfort doesn't matter to her DF as long as the man gets his kiss.

Your DH really dropped the ball on this one and rather than learning from this mistake, reading the responses and trying to change his actions in the future to ensure his daughter does not feel the like she has to do whatever men ask her to, he's sulking? He needs to take some responsibility for his parenting, genuinely understand that on this occasion he fucked up and change his actions in the future. He could have used this as an opportunity to explain to his DD that what Daddy did was wrong, she can always say no, she never has to kiss any men she doesn't want to just because they tell her to, Daddy will always support her decisions etc. Instead, he sounds as if he has no intention on improving from this and your DD will learn a really sad lesson about what boundaries she is allowed to show to men. Her DF is the first male relationship she will have and if he can't respect her boundaries and autonomy then why would she ever expect other men to?

As you know, and as your DH needs to learn pretty damn quickly, children should not be forced to kiss, hug or otherwise touch people that they say "no" to. They will very quickly learn that their boundaries are not important, that they are wrong for saying "no" to people and that it is impolite and unkind to stand up for themselves. This then filters through to future relationships, the boundaries she feels she can place with men, the treatment in relationships she may be willing to accept and what she will and will not find acceptable in a relationship. If this is the lesson he is wanting to teach your daughter, he's no kind of father.

She wouldn’t tell me if there was a repeat - she’s quite sneaky in her nature, when it comes to getting what she wants. Like everyone she has her good points, but she’s an egotist. She would’ve made DD kiss him because it reflects well on her as having a granddaughter who pleases her friends and does what she says, if that makes sense?

YANBU. I was made to kiss or hug my parents (or grandparents) friends as a child. It forces you to ignore your boundaries and do it enough you either can't enforce them once older or worse, you've become so practised at ignoring/suppressing your feelings that you don't see them yourself and end up doing things as a teenager that you don't either don't recognise a dodgy situation or feel that you can't say no. Your husband likely won't realise this or think we're all over reacting but he's not lived with the pressure to put others needs and wants before what you are comfortable with all his life. Its a completely different lived experience that he won't recognise. As a one off, sure it might not harm DD but it never is, and it becomes cumulative.

I'm very well aware of boundary violations.

I wouldn't make my kids kiss ANY adult that they didn't want to. My Children are very cuddly and have very close relationships with the lovely men and women that we surround ourselves with. They also would voice their opinions at a young age if they didn't want to kiss some random person to say goodbye.

My point is, my H and I are on the same page and most people that i know would never force a child to kiss an adult if they didn't want to! If something didnt sit well with me regarding anything to do with my children then i certainly would address it that day and not sit on it for a few weeks.

I think the use of the word 'ordered' is your interpretation as OP didn't actually say that.

Your husband likely won't realise this or think we're all over reacting but he's not lived with the pressure to put others needs and wants before what you are comfortable with all his life. Its a completely different lived experience that he won't recognise. As a one off, sure it might not harm DD but it never is, and it becomes cumulative.

Absolutely this. I started by reeling off inappropriate interactions we’ve witnessed at work between men and women where the woman has sat back and done nothing as making a fuss would ‘upset the man’ and make her look ‘dramatic’. I said at the very least that’s where this leads - just a resigned tolerance of constant harassment because ‘men having their moments of fun comes first’.

Grown men also don’t realise how frankly repellent they can be to children (if you know what I mean?). I remember being made to kiss older male relatives and my dad’s friends and being repulsed by the smell of nicotine/beer and hating feeling their stubbly faces. It felt really vile. That’s obviously not the main issue but they have zero clue how they come across to other people in that sense. They don’t have to be the smelly raincoat type for the interaction to feel really unpleasant.

You said, "it is a non issue ... I also dont think it was anything that is going to damage her for life".

Now you're saying you would never make your kids kiss anyone they didn't want to.

So it is an issue, then.

That sounds awful. I suppose that i am lucky that i have never been put in that position and wouldnt allow my kids to either.

It doesnt matter if you MIL will listen to you or not or how many people on here agree with you or not. YOU are the parent and if something has made you feel uncomfortable then you need to be able to voice your opinions and safe-guard your kids (which might mean not allowing them to Grandma and Grandads for a while)

DH finds it very hard to stand up to his mum

My parent who was a DC of my "D"GM had the same problem. Years of conditioning will do that. You need to put your foot down about there being no contact between DCs and PILs without you there to supervise.

You have taken my words, edited them and put them in a different order which now changes the context of them to suit your agenda!

I said it was a non-issue for me BECAUSE i would never make my kids kiss someone they didn't want to. I was then trying to reassure the OP to say that i am sure it wont have damaged them for life for having to do it this once.

My actual words below!
To me tbh - it is a non issue. If my kids didn't want to kiss people then they didn't. But, i also don't think it was anything that is going to damage her for life, giving a family friend who she has known for years a kiss.

Yep, this is spot on. In my personal experience as children, the boys (my brothers, cousins, friends etc) were never forced to kiss the old men, uncles, grandpas, friends of the family etc but all the girls were.

The boys didn't get used to having their boundaries flattened, they didn't grow up with the adults showing them time and time again that it doesn't matter if you don't want to kiss a man, if he tells you to then you have to because it will make him sad if you don't. They weren't burdened with the responsibility for grown men's feelings and therefore the responsibility for a grown man feeling sad if you say "no" to him. They weren't taught that it's rude to say "no" when a man asks to touch or kiss you, and that you must always say "yes" even if you don't want to because otherwise you are rude, naughty, mean etc.

The men at dinner parties, meals, family days etc used to love it when the little girls sat on their laps, kissed their cheeks, hugged them etc, but even if we say "no" or explained we didn't want to, we had no choice. None of us wanted to be held by these strangers, having our faces scratched by their stubble, smelling the coffee, beer and cigarettes on their breath, being held in a way that was irritating or uncomfortable but being too nervous to say anything. Knowing that you have no choice but to be held by these men, kissed by them etc but not only that, you MUST look like you're enjoying it or you're seen as rude. We all grew up into women with terrible boundaries. I am too much of a people pleaser now and I wholeheartedly blame these childhood experiences for this. I feel terribly guilty if I say "no" to someone, especially when they want physical intimacy or closeness (hugging, kissing etc just like the men when I was a child). I've had to teach myself not to apologise profusely for saying no to someone as if it was something bad. Your husband and MIL are trying to raise your DD to be just like me, unable to confidently say no to men, unable to do anything remotely "unkind" even when it is in my best interests and hemmoraging money on therapy to try and enforce my boundaries with men as an adult.

My point is, my H and I are on the same page and most people that i know would never force a child to kiss an adult if they didn't want to! If something didnt sit well with me regarding anything to do with my children then i certainly would address it that day and not sit on it for a few weeks.

The problem here is that the OP and her H are not on the same page. The OP has also just told us that she herself was forced to kiss older men when she was small. She has had to confront her own conditioning on this in order to protect her DD. You lack empathy and a basic understanding of psychology if you don't understand why that might delay her realisation that her daughter was mistreated.

As for quibbling over the word "order", the OP has used the word "made" in the sense of "made her do it". In this context, they can be treated as synonyms.