To be angry my daughter was made to kiss a family friend?

[Garethkeenansstapler]

Something that’s been playing on my mind for a few weeks.

DH took our daughter, 3, to visit his mum and dad who live locally. Their friends happened to be there (same couple their age, DH has known them since he was little) and DH mentioned when he got back ‘DD even gave Pete a kiss when she left’.

Now DD is confident but would never kiss a man she doesn’t know willingly. It turns out they had ‘encouraged’ her to give him a kiss and she had ‘eventually’ done it.

I don’t know why but it’s made me really angry. I asked if he would make our baby DS kiss him in future and DH said ‘of course not’ but couldn’t really justify why not. We all know of course 🙄

I would of course expect DD to say goodbye or wave to people as they were leaving, as I think manners matter. But the thought of her being made to kiss old men she doesn’t know to make them happy makes my blood boil.

It’s clear DH thinks I’m overreacting, so I’m going to show him this thread if the response shows I’m not BU. So please lay out why this was so inappropriate of him and that I’m not some neurotic madwoman for being angry about it.

Thanks x

Dear Mr Gareth

As a child I was taught that otherwise people had a right to insist of physical contact from me (a hug or a kiss) even when I very much didn’t want to comply. The message I got from this was that my feelings of discomfort with physical contact were less important than someone’s else’s desire for it.

I took that message into my teen years and my early adulthood. It led to many unhealthy and unhappy experiences including sexual encounters with older men that I deeply regret. They weren’t sexual assault because I didn’t say “no”. I didn’t say “no” because I’d learned I wasn’t supposed to.

Protect your daughter. Not just from “nonces” but from the inability to say when she really wants to.

Burnamer

He's not very bright, is he?

I don't think I could respect him.

I would be fucking livid. This is a topic I feel so strongly about. Young children should not be forced to kiss/touch/cuddle anyone, even people they do know well. This is especially so damaging to little girls, being taught they have no bodily autonomy and they should "put out" to make other people happy.

I could throttle your husband right now for being so fucking thick. Another misogynist in sheep's clothing strikes again.

100% agree that it’s about letting your DD have healthy boundaries rather than about Pete himself but how the fuck does your DH know with such certainty Pete isn’t a nonce? Nonce’s aren’t strangers to everyone, they often appear charming and normal to everyone except the children they are abusing - its how they get access.

So his daughter should go through life kissing men who ask for it regardless of her feelings, but his son doesn't have to.

Get hi mto explain that one.

I don't get why some adults think this is okay. At what age will she learn that she doesn't have to kiss a man if she doesn't want to? Will she ever be fully confident that it's okay for her to say no to someone if it makes her feel uncomfortable if she's spent her childhood being expected to overcome her discomfort.

Your DH is a bit of an idiot if he doesn't understand this to be honest OP.

I'm impressed that he seems to think he can tell who is a creep or a nonce though. Has he considered hiring himself out to the police with those kind of detective skills? If only it was so easy for us mere women to be able to tell who the nonces and the creeps were maybe 85,000 women in England and Wales wouldn't be raped or sexually assaulted each year. What a superpower he has.

YADNBU

How thick is he that he still doesn't get it after you have repeatedly explained it to him. It must be so challenging to have any respect for such a sexist thicko.

10000% with you.

This happened to me growing up when I went to my Nans.

It was always my Dad's mum that would be saying kiss including kissing her wrinkly old brother. Must have been aged between 5 - 10. It was never my Mum's mum that insisted kissing, she was a narky bugger but I'm grateful for that.

I absolutely hated going to my Dad's mum and I'm actually quite angry about it to be honest.

I grew up feeling like I didn't have a say over my own body and I had to put up and shut up.

When I was about 11 a couple of girls on my street used to bully me. One of the girls used to touch my boobs and twist my nipple until I cried. The other girl would kinda hold my arms or block me leaving. Is that sexual abuse?

He’s gone off sulking now ‘I suppose I’m a monster then’. God I’m sick of doing men’s thinking for them. Really tired of it.

No he's not a monster, if he was brought up that way he doesn't know any different. He can consider himself educated and apologise to his daughter and acknowledge her feelings. That will be more constructive than stomping around in a huff.

Completely agree. I would never, ever "encourage" my daughters to kiss men when they felt uncomfortable! I would encourage them to trust their instincts! Yes, this would make me furious. Especially the sympathy your DP shows for his son but not his daughter!! 😠

It's almost as if he thinks pleasing men is the job of girls 😡

"I suppose I'm a monster" stop catastrophizing! Just take the lesson in.

It really is all about him and his feelings and not your daughter and her feelings isn't it

I'm glad she has you

Let him sulk.

Altho I'd reply, no just a bloody thoughtless man.

Can I just point out it isn't just little girls who are forced to kiss people they don't want to. This is very frequently done to little boys too. I've made it crystal clear my son is not to be made to kiss or hug anyone he doesn't want to and I always ask before I kiss or hug him - of course he loves cuddles with his mummy but I want to set a good example.

Yanbu 100%
I'm raging on your/your DDs behalf actually.

Yes, a very important lesson for boys! Hugs and such have to be wanted and reciprocal. I'm strict about this with my boys too.

He has taught his little girl a life lesson. That her own uncomfortableness doesn’t matter if a man wants a kiss.

He should be teaching her that her body is her’s alone to control, even at her age. Not already breaking down her personal barriers.

And now that he’s been spoon fed that very obvious info, he’s sulking. Attractive.

She’s supposed to be spending the day at PIL’s on Sunday (without us), that won’t be happening now. This has made me uncomfortable to the degree that I don’t want her alone with them when their friends might ‘pop by’ (and they do quite a lot).

You dont know how right YOU are at this time ! If my parents had been overprotective it would have been WONDERFUL.

Imagine , 12 year old girl sent an interflora bouquet and card on Valentines day,
I had my little crush on a boy at school so was over the moon as I dreampt it was him. Turned out it was a 40 year old man who owned the corner shop. I was SENT to thank him by my parents. They KNEW and thought it was cute.

I adored my dad (hes been gone for many years now) he woke me up and called me downstairs and I was met with over 50 adults, I was in my nighty and half asleep, it was new years eve (had NO understanding of importance of the date) I burst into tears and RAN. This was brought up for DECADES about how I humiliated my dad !

LOVED swimming, we went sunday mornings with Dad brother and sister. Dads hours changed and suddenly "uncle bob" (his boss) took us. always wanted to "PLAY" ie touchy feely. I was a very proficient swimmer and was training with aqualungs but MY PARENTS allowed this guy to help me float!

Mum set me up with a babysitting job. The KID tried to put his hands down my blouse and when his father drove me home put his hand up my skirt and tried to kiss me. I refused to babysit again and guess what ? MY mum marched me to their house to EXPLAIN to them why I was lazy and wouldnt babysit, HORRIBLE and something that hits me everytime mumsnet talks about babysitters.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE continue to a Brilliant job as a mum, and to all dads and guardians do the same. If you were uncomfortable just think how bad your child felt but were too young to verbalise it.

I am nearly 60 and my heart still hurts because my mum and dad never backed me up,

Your child will ALWAYS remember your actions when they were hurt or uncomfortable. PLEASE ALWAYS protect them.

My mum and dad didnt protect me and that haunts me. Your kid will kick off if they think you are being over protective!

OH how I wish I had memories of mum and dad being over protective. BUT I DONT.
You are doing the BEST thing ever !

Sometimes we need to tell children to do things that they don't want to do but are yet in their best interests like eating broccoli, going to sleep and having medicine.

Telling children to do things that aren't in their best interests (regardless of how innocuous or worrying the motives of adults may be) we now know different, and even if this was previously the norm, we now know better

His main defence is ‘But Pete isn’t a nonce, I wouldn’t make her kiss a creep or a stranger'

But he's fine with making her kiss male friends or family then?

The fact he wouldn't force your son to kiss a grown man speaks volumes.

I remember being forced and humiliated into doing this as a child and hated it. As I showed reluctance my parents (both) would then tell me off in the car on the way home afterwards. 🌹

"But Pete isn’t a nonce, I wouldn’t make her kiss a creep or a stranger"

This has made me absolutely furious. It's essential he understands this. If he doesn't, next time he might just say "stapler doesn't want her to" <eyeroll> and they'll say you're ridiculous and make her do it again. And he won't tell you.

First, "nonces" don't have labels. My parents would have said the relative who raped me when I was your daughter's age was definitely not a nonce.

Second, to her Pete IS a stranger. Third, he has no idea who a child or woman might find creepy. Most men have no creep radar. They just don't feel it.

Fourth, well, everything else we've been saying. She shouldn't have to kiss anyone to please others or because they find it cute. Even if it were possible to look into Pete's brain and verify that he's the most innocent non-noncey man on earth. The next man might not be.

When he's calmed down, please please try again. Some of us here are survivors of serious crime that has affected our whole lives, others remember being disgusted by having to kiss people when we were little, all of us should be heard. Your daughter's safety and comfort are more important than ANYTHING else. As a father it's imperative he gets that. He should really do some safeguarding training because that would probably make it sink in.