To wonder how a biological male has won a women's cycling race?

[houseselling]

Seriously why are the sporting organisations so slow to stop biological men from entering the world of women's sport that they so predictably end up winning and stealing titles and opportunities from biological women.

The mind boggles in rage.

@nothingcomestonothing Agree.

This.

Seriously.
Not employing her is not preventing access to a service. It is not employing her and is subject to any employment contract she might have.
If you think that a manager of a venue at the fringe can replace their staff who have made a stand on perceived trans rights with other staff, you not seeing the reality of today. The venue would be picketed and shut down and any staff that might be prepared to work subject to vile abuse. Particularly at the fringe where the audience is more likely to do these things. This is happening daily. If you think that an organisation can just sack staff for supporting a trans agenda without serious consequences to their business then you are wrong. Universities don't even employ their students and they are scared shitless of addressing extreme activism by a small minority on campus.

Why do you think that discrimination laws only apply in employment situations? Why do you think that the venue was going to employer her? It wasn't it was just hosting her as it does others.

You can't refuse a service for a protected characteristic. .

And who is going to be violent? Surely you are not suggesting that a lesbian KC is going to be violent? It's really not a good look for a venue to not be able to host an event on H&S grounds.

Is this the world you want to live in? One where women, lesbian women are refused an audience because some violent men think lesbians can have penises and want to shut up a middle age lesbian who says that this is lesbian erasure?

I hope that they have their asses sued off and if they state that they couldn't keep people safe and that comes out in evidence well at least it will show who are the violent ones and why.

And yes in the main hospitality staff are casual staff. If they refuse to work because they have bigoted beliefs what normally happens is that the venue doesn't require them again. They might try to bring a claim that they are being 'discriminated against' but they really are not, they are refusing to work due to a person's protected characteristic. They don't have to listen they just have to work. I mean try that on in any retail environment, refusing to serve for a protected characteristic. It won't wash. And any argument that the venue can't keep them safe should lead to the venue being closed for H&S grounds rather than being discriminatory.

In fact the staff who refuse to work can also be personally sued for discrimination should Joanna Cherry want to.

And as for Universities they should be expelling TRAs who are violent towards women. They should be the epicentres of free speech. As it is they are allowing women to be silenced in favour of males who are violent. If you think that this is acceptable in any way you clearly don't believe that free speech matters.

There are several threads on twitter where experienced barristers discuss this. The club and the staff are clearly in the wrong here.

https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1653215267487461376

@nothingcomestonothing

Agree. And in your example asking kids to sit out the race wouldn't make it fairer it would mean they missed the experience of sports day (that is probably a once a year event) and the chance to compete with their peers.
With the RL example in the OP, these kind of races need to be entered in advance, you don't just pitch up on the day with £5, like its the village fun run. There would definitely be stages of application where teams and names would have to be submitted. And at no point is it flagged that this isn't a female athlete.

https://twitter.com/AudreySuffolk/status/1653498193882107932

Another thread on why this is discrimination.

@nothingcomestonothing I think (no offense) that you are missing the point. Yes the governing body bodies should prevent this but, as they haven't, who does that leave? Those that care - and that should include the female athletes affected. If they aren't happy to speak out the I can only conclude that the problem is not so bad, so better to spend my time lobbying on behalf of women who can't speak out (like those in prison).

Its really hard to convince the general public that this is a real and serious problem whilst women are happy to just go along with it.

I just don't agree. Have you seen what happens to women who speak out? The onus should be on the governing bodies of sports, and everyone should be shaming them, not the women who have to suck it up or lose their sponsorships, which may be their livelihoods, not to mention being threatened, harassed, smeared as bigots. To me that's akin to saying that women who don't speak up against abusers are 'happy to go along with it' or they'd leave, it's victim blaming. The women affected didn't cause this and it shouldn't be on them to fix it. I think it's really unfair to suggest that they must be fine with it if they won't risk their safety or their career to speak out.

I think you are being too simplistic.

Lots of women and parents want to speak out but if they love and have trained hard in their chosen sport speaking out means not being selected for team sports or to represent.

Putting the onus on the athletes is not the correct response. The sporting bodies owe it to female athletes to use their power to put an end to it.

Have you seen what happens to women who speak out?

Yes. Have you seen what happens when they don't?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Again, that's victim blaming. The women didn't cause this. This isn't what happens when women don't speak out, this is what happens when males cheat and the institutions let them. This is not the women's fault, and it's not in their hands to fix. I'd love it if all the actual female competitors told the sport to go fuck themselves and the whole thing went bankrupt, but it's not that simple for the women who are directly affected and it's not fair to put it on them to sort a problem they didn't invent, didn't agree to and don't have the power to solve. Absolutely women as a sex class should speak up, but the ones directly affected are not the ones who should have to take real risks to point out that that man is a cheat and their sporting body allows him to cheat.

As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. Good luck with waiting quietly for men to realise they're treating you unfairly though.

In a situation where the victim is penalised for speaking out, its up to the regulating body and the rest of us to step up.
Blaming the victim is not acceptable.

Good luck with waiting quietly for men to realise they're treating you unfairly though.

No one on the thread has advocated for that, have they? But expecting the women involved to fix it is unfair. Just as I as an NHS employee, would be risking disciplinary action and reporting to the police for a hate crime if I say that there is a man in the women's bay, if that man has special feelings (yes really, that is the policy). So in that situation other women speak out, who aren't risking their career doing so. And I speak out for other women, when it's not me on the line. Stop blaming the women, or suggesting women aren't working from change this, it's overwhelmingly women working to change things. Suggesting that women are waiting quietly for the men to fix it is just insulting.

Of course its overwhelmingly women working to fix this. When have I or anyone else on here suggested otherwise? What I am suggesting, which you are taking exception to, is that the protest needs to be led by the female athletes (in this case cyclists) who are most affected by it.

Well I must have misunderstood then, because when you write

women are happy to just go along with it.

and

Yes. Have you seen what happens when they don't?(speak out)

and

Good luck with waiting quietly for men to realise they're treating you unfairly though.

It sounded like you were blaming women for not tackling this issue. It didn't sound like you were saying that women are working to fix this. And expecting the women directly affected to lead the protests is like expecting women who are currently in abusive relationships to spearhead campaigns against DV. Other women should be and are protesting this, the women affected by this can protest other instances more safely.

Oh dear another man walking all over women. Happening all the time and many are blind to it.