AIBU - Transgender 'athletes'

[HappyHippo1234]

To start off - I have no issue with trans people at all. The only issue I have is transgender females (male to female) competing in women sports.

Yes, they may have been taking hormones and they have lost some muscle and gained some fat. But, they have stronger bones and bigger spines, hands, feet, lungs and hearts. Basically trans females have an advantage over biological females.

What I absolutely HATE about the situation, it the trans athletes attitude, it honestly disgusts me. Did they never take biology as teenagers or learn about puberty?
For them to sit there with their wins and say that they have no advantage just p*sses me off. Are they stupid or ignorant? There's no way they don't know they have an advantage. Do they not realise they are taking wins away from girls and woman who have spent their whole lives training for a sport only for it to be taken away from someone who was a mediocre male.

Look at Lia Thomas, she was somewhere in the 400-500th best college male swimmer or something like that. She is now trans and BAM she is number 1 and winning everything.

It just annoys me to no end. Especially the trans woman who you can tell that they KNOW they have a major advantage and are cheating the system and then sit there with a SMUG GRIN on their faces. I mean every Caitlyn Jenner said it's wrong.

Sorry for the rant. My DD15 has been upset all week as on the weekend another girl beat all the girls by a huge stretch in her cross country meet (her team is usually 1st but were bumped to 2nd). At first everyone thought this girl was great, until one mom heard the group the girl was with discussing the results and how it was great for the team that this girl came out as trans and was boosting their results etc! Fair to say that news travelled quickly and there were MANY parents complaining to officials. But surprise surprise nothing was done about it. So at the award giving ceremony everyone waited as everything up to 1st place was given out and as soon as they got to the 1st team, I would say 95% of people walked away. It felt harsh but necessary!
(Also the girl was 16 and had only recently transitioned from what we could gather and when you actually looked at her you could tell she had gone through at least some portion of male puberty). Again nothing against the girl just don't think she could compete.

And to get around all these discrimination lawsuits, I think they should change the categories! Have an XX category and an XY category, that why there is no debate and no 'discrimination' as you can't identify as XY if you are XX! (And then also have an open category where trans, non-binary etc. can compete).

SORRY THAT WAS SO LONG. NOW FOR THE VOTE:

YABU - Trans (XX) women are woman and should be allowed to compete with XY women, even though they scientifically have an advantage.

YANBU - They will always have an advantage and so should not compete with XY women.

You don't seem to have understood the post you are responding to.

If you are having trouble, please ask and I will explain it.

They aren't women. Women are not born with penises. They are men. Also it's not cis women. It's simply women. There's only women and transwomen aka biological men.

Still doesn’t make them women

no amount of messing about testosterone can turn a male into a female

"They arent males, they are women born transsexual who have undergone hormone therapy that has eliminated any advantage that they might have had."

And the science has proven this is not true. This thread has many links to the research. And that research covers both trans people who are male and reduced their testosterone and males who are not trans with reduced testosterone.... all studies say the same thing though.

That your statement is false. And proven false.

However, I love reading studies.

If you have a study that proves your statement above, please do post it. I might be one I have not yet read and I am keen to keep up with the science on this.

"I was also trying to point out that some CIS women have an advantage over other CIS women because of their gene pool"

And do you see one person on this thread denying that some female athletes have advantages over other female athletes?

The thing is all female athletes have a chance to win. The competition is fair because they are all female, regardless of their race.

'and following hormone therapy, Trans Women may not have any more of an advantage than the African women have over the European women."

If you genuinely cannot see how fucking racist this is, I would suggest you stop posting in this fashion. Your posts are simply being deleted every time. Because they are racist. You are now equating a male reducing their testosterone to women from African.

And please stop using cis. It is a nonsense term.

Genuinely, i don’t think it’s worth the bother of engaging with our misogynistic and racist ‘friend’.

Trans women are women. If the science supports that, then you guys will just ignore it and post links to the science that doesnt support that. We are just going to have to agree to disagree. This is like going onto the Manchester United supporters discussion group and trying to persuade them to support City.
Happy Easter.

They simply aren't which is why they have trans in front of women. Because they aren't women. They will always remain biological men. How embarrassing you think a woman can have a penis.

I mean, no one posting in good faith, would be plowing the depths of the nasty, overtly racist, rhetorical canon we are seeing here about “African women” (as a homogenous mass) that we are seeing here.

It’s completely unacceptable. @MsJD should be thoroughly ashamed.

For any person who is reading who thinks that these males are even reducing their testosterone levels to 'female levels', the maximum testosterone that a woman with a health issue will reach is 5.5 nmol/L. Currently most sports are allowing 5 or 10 with some reducing to 2.5.

Much of this has been fed by headlines about 'women with naturally high testosterone' being 'banned' from sport. This is simply untrue. These 'women' are even called females by some media. But they are males. They are male who have differences of sex development and have been through male puberty.

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues). 5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

https://twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ 

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

“The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.”

Meaning that even 5.5 mol/l is 'very high' for a female and they could have a tumour that is causing this level.

This is nothing like these reported 'women with naturally high testosterone'.

This has happened because the media has to report these male as 'women' and this creates this false phraseology which then propagates around the world through media. Even an African nation's sports minister used the phrase.

The effect is to garner sympathy. And to normalise these males being in female sport.

It is simply lying.

Here is a chart that shows the differences. Notice how low female (normal) levels are.

But the science does not support it.

And we don't 'just ignore it'.

We have read the science. I know some of these women have, like me, read as wide a range of studies as is available. And we have informed ourselves. Do you really think that we just read studies that support our own beliefs? Well, that would hardly be a mature approach to seeking to 'educate ourselves'. As so many extreme activists have told us to do previously....

However, you clearly are unprepared to read the science and you have posited racist trope to support your position.

Don't lie to us and tell us we will disregard the studies. You didn't even bother to post any. I would suggest it is because there is none that disprove the other studies. So, I could this statement "you guys will just ignore it and post links to the science that doesnt support that" to be dishonest.

"This is like going onto the Manchester United supporters discussion group and trying to persuade them to support City."

No. Because that is an emotional decision. But this shows us how you are likely to have based your opinions. On emotion. On who you 'support'. Rather than on the very real impacts that males competing with females in female sports categories have.

When those males can continue to compete in male sporting categories. They are not banned. They are not excluded because of their gender.

This is not about emotions. This is about facts.

Even the IOC agrees that it is unfair for males to compete with females in female sports categories.

You can keep repeating it.

That you don't understand how you have used racist trope to attempt to support your argument is your issue to deal with.

Not sure why I’m bothering to respond… but you are spectacularly missing the point.

the fact that some men are faster than some other men is irrelevant. The fact that some women are faster than some women is irrelevant. And the fact the some women are faster than some men is irrelevant.

what is relevant is that no woman will ever be as fast as the fastest man (or even most mediocre men) and the reason for that is simple biology.

p.s you can’t change sex - it’s impossible

But squid, when we do engage and provide more evidence it gives more links and more ideas for readers to think about. It was through following the links provided here on MN and by watching the Biologists and Sports Scientists on twitter that I learned the counter arguments.

That’s true.

But in this particular case, it sees to be encouraging this particular misogynist to make overtly racist arguments. Indeed, arguments that are incredibly damaging to black women. And damaging in multiple ways.

I’m not sure that’s worth the links.

Especially since many black feminists have been pretty clear that rhetoric that alienates black women from the broader category of ‘women’ and even aligns them instead with men (on some spurious biological basis) is completely unacceptable.

There is simply no excuse for the kinds of rhetoric @MsJD is deploying on this thread.

It’s even worse when they do that awful playing the poor confused victim who has merely stated ‘facts’ to justify it.

I see another person has come back to fill the void left by Mark, with all the same misogyny, false equivalence and an additional side order of racism.

This one's got "Ms" in the username, though, so clearly we should probably listen this time.

@ReneBumsWombats It makes me feel like a character in Voltaire’s candide. Each time we think that it’s got as bad as it can possibly get, it turns out that something even worse comes along. And at the same time, we’re supposed to maintain the optimistic belief that these posters are genuinely posting in any approximation of good faith.

Just like that but where they’re besieged in a castle deciding whose arse cheek to eat while the MNHQ Pangloss insists that this is still somehow evidence that this is the best of all possible worlds.

I think my favourite bit was either the racism or the denigration of women's boxing as mere "slapping". So women are so weak and pathetic that they can only slap, but we should let men into the boxing ring with them because there's no significant difference.

It's that kind of clear absurdity that usually makes me think a poster doesn't actually believe what they're saying and is just on a wind up. But I'm actually getting genuine woman hate vibes from this Ms. I guess some people will say anything to justify men assaulting women.

The transwoman friend who respected sex classification in sport but has now been turned by evil Mumsnet is total shite, though.

Agree. Non-white people are not collateral damage in this fight. Racism this overt should get the poster permanently banned IMO.

Racism this overt should get the poster permanently banned IMO.

I would like to think so.

'Athletes'. Why in quotation marks?
A picture paints a thousand words.

Wouldn't women who are born 'transsexual' delude themselves into believing that they're male?