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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU - Transgender 'athletes'

440 replies

HappyHippo1234 · 06/04/2023 00:38

To start off - I have no issue with trans people at all. The only issue I have is transgender females (male to female) competing in women sports.

Yes, they may have been taking hormones and they have lost some muscle and gained some fat. But, they have stronger bones and bigger spines, hands, feet, lungs and hearts. Basically trans females have an advantage over biological females.

What I absolutely HATE about the situation, it the trans athletes attitude, it honestly disgusts me. Did they never take biology as teenagers or learn about puberty?
For them to sit there with their wins and say that they have no advantage just p*sses me off. Are they stupid or ignorant? There's no way they don't know they have an advantage. Do they not realise they are taking wins away from girls and woman who have spent their whole lives training for a sport only for it to be taken away from someone who was a mediocre male.

Look at Lia Thomas, she was somewhere in the 400-500th best college male swimmer or something like that. She is now trans and BAM she is number 1 and winning everything.

It just annoys me to no end. Especially the trans woman who you can tell that they KNOW they have a major advantage and are cheating the system and then sit there with a SMUG GRIN on their faces. I mean every Caitlyn Jenner said it's wrong.

Sorry for the rant. My DD15 has been upset all week as on the weekend another girl beat all the girls by a huge stretch in her cross country meet (her team is usually 1st but were bumped to 2nd). At first everyone thought this girl was great, until one mom heard the group the girl was with discussing the results and how it was great for the team that this girl came out as trans and was boosting their results etc! Fair to say that news travelled quickly and there were MANY parents complaining to officials. But surprise surprise nothing was done about it. So at the award giving ceremony everyone waited as everything up to 1st place was given out and as soon as they got to the 1st team, I would say 95% of people walked away. It felt harsh but necessary!
(Also the girl was 16 and had only recently transitioned from what we could gather and when you actually looked at her you could tell she had gone through at least some portion of male puberty). Again nothing against the girl just don't think she could compete.

And to get around all these discrimination lawsuits, I think they should change the categories! Have an XX category and an XY category, that why there is no debate and no 'discrimination' as you can't identify as XY if you are XX! (And then also have an open category where trans, non-binary etc. can compete).

SORRY THAT WAS SO LONG. NOW FOR THE VOTE:

YABU - Trans (XX) women are woman and should be allowed to compete with XY women, even though they scientifically have an advantage.

YANBU - They will always have an advantage and so should not compete with XY women.

OP posts:
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TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 06/04/2023 05:38

It seems unfair that trans women cannot compete in their chosen sport that they may have dedicated their lives to

They can compete in any and every sport they wish to, as you well know.

Noicant · 06/04/2023 05:51

Fairest thing would be women/girls and an open category. Transmen taking testosterone also have an advantage over other girls.

thegrain · 06/04/2023 05:55

So at the award giving ceremony everyone waited as everything up to 1st place was given out and as soon as they got to the 1st team, I would say 95% of people walked away. It felt harsh but necessary! I mean that's very brave! I guess it shows lots of people feel the same.

Anyotherdude · 06/04/2023 05:58

Silentmama · 06/04/2023 01:42

Why can't trans men and trans women - compete against trans athletes - its fairer that way,

Bit like if I ran a race and said 'I felt older' than I was - I could not identify in an older bracket to do better could 1

Some sports do already have a “veterans” or “masters” race category for older people (including swimming) - so it is odd that they couldn’t add another category to each of the other branches of their sport - that would certainly sort out the answer of whether the trans people were cheating or voyeurs, or whether they genuinely believe that they are the gender they have transitioned to or not…

MovedByFanciesThatAreCurled · 06/04/2023 06:11

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yet I don't really understand /why/ they want to compete when it is so clearly stacked to their advantage.

Really? You don’t understand? Ok then.

And women believing in the reality of biology is not ‘gross anti trans rhetoric’

PriOn1 · 06/04/2023 06:12

Please don’t call MtF transitioners “Trans females”. That is literally what they are not. It’s also a term transactivists are trying to push, now that they have (relatively speaking) colonised the word “women” to include some men.

The term trans-identified-men is often adopted by those who know that men are not women. I personally prefer to be 100% clear and use “men who claim they are women”.

But if you have to use an ideologically acceptable word, please use “transwomen”.

ZirihePevzig · 06/04/2023 06:14

yanbu at all but you have your terminology confused.

female people are always female regardless of identity and have xx chromosomes

male people are always male and have xy chromosomes

most people would understand trans female to refer to an xx person who wants to be treated as if they are male, which is the opposite of how you used the term in your op.

but terminology aside you are spot-on.

there is no point having a omens category in sport which is "inclusive"

female bodies are on average smaller and weaker than male bodies. that's an average and the variance/spread in the male population is wider than the variance in males so the elite women at the top of their game can certainly beat some men, but not ever the elite men at the top of their game. sports competitions are about finding and celebrating the elites at the top of the game. mixed competition will never be fair.

testosterone is a naturally-occurring performance enhancing drug which occurs at much higher levels in males than females. a female person who takes testosterone in order to express a trans identity will outperform women who don't take testosterone. any male, even if they have suppressed testosterone, will still have elevated levels compared to what can naturally occur in female people, and will have other physiological advantages too.

we don't need more categories. we just need rigorous definition that the female category is only for XX persons who don't take testosterone for any reason the other category can be renamed to "open" and can be inclusive to all.

GuevarasBeret · 06/04/2023 06:16

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Mumsnet doesn’t hate Trans people at all. Disagreeing with someone isn’t hate.
pointing out things which are ludicrous is not hate
Not affirming someone in the way the want isn’t hate.

I consider these men as cheaters.

thegrain · 06/04/2023 06:19

GuevarasBeret · 06/04/2023 06:16

Mumsnet doesn’t hate Trans people at all. Disagreeing with someone isn’t hate.
pointing out things which are ludicrous is not hate
Not affirming someone in the way the want isn’t hate.

I consider these men as cheaters.

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They consider themselves women so I don't think it's done maliciously. Can't imagine many men would fake it.

Happylittlechicken · 06/04/2023 06:32

thegrain · 06/04/2023 06:19

They consider themselves women so I don't think it's done maliciously. Can't imagine many men would fake it.

Show quote history

Er…. Really? Why? If you were 492 in the mens league and realised you’d do better and get more money in the womens league…. Why wouldn’t you claim to be a woman? Lia Thomas. If you were a mediocre male cyclist why wouldn’t you go and compete in the womens and win competitions… Veronica Ivy/Emily bridges. If you were a crap weightlifter who’d never won anything in the Mens category, why not claim to be a woman and go to the olympics. Laurel Hubbard

and that’s just 3. There are many many more.

GoodChat · 06/04/2023 06:32

See, in high level professional sport I completely agree with this being an issue. I'm fully in support of the suggestion to change the wording of governance to cover 'biological' men and women rather than just men and women to ensure access to safe spaces etc.

But these are kids and your daughter just seems to be upset that they didn't win like they normally do, and I think it's a good life lesson for her that she won't always win and sometimes life's unfair.

Happylittlechicken · 06/04/2023 06:36

So you think losing to a cheater is a good life lesson and you just need to #bekind. And accept you’ll never win. And what life lesson is that boy learning? That women don’t matter and he can do what he wNts

so I’d girls aren’t winning at amateur competitions, andcan see they’ll never beat the boys claiming to be girls, won’t that mean they just give up abs don’t even go to elite competitions? So there will be no female athletes in elite sport will there?

thegrain · 06/04/2023 06:39

Happylittlechicken · 06/04/2023 06:32

Er…. Really? Why? If you were 492 in the mens league and realised you’d do better and get more money in the womens league…. Why wouldn’t you claim to be a woman? Lia Thomas. If you were a mediocre male cyclist why wouldn’t you go and compete in the womens and win competitions… Veronica Ivy/Emily bridges. If you were a crap weightlifter who’d never won anything in the Mens category, why not claim to be a woman and go to the olympics. Laurel Hubbard

and that’s just 3. There are many many more.

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I guess I'm just thinking I'd never pretend to be a bloke to get all the advantages they get. But yeah good point? Who am I to assume other's moral compass. I'm probably far to naive. Like there's people who identify as women in prison who were considered male when they committed their offence. Maybe that's to get into a women prison. I don't really know enough about it so best to ignore me and point me in the direction of useful resources!

Teamsaction · 06/04/2023 06:39

GoodChat · 06/04/2023 06:32

See, in high level professional sport I completely agree with this being an issue. I'm fully in support of the suggestion to change the wording of governance to cover 'biological' men and women rather than just men and women to ensure access to safe spaces etc.

But these are kids and your daughter just seems to be upset that they didn't win like they normally do, and I think it's a good life lesson for her that she won't always win and sometimes life's unfair.

What?! You only get to be in high level sports if you compete in low level sports and work your way up. If you are not in the top places you don't get the opportunities to progress.

This issue affects all levels of sports.

SquidwardBound · 06/04/2023 06:40

But these are kids and your daughter just seems to be upset that they didn't win like they normally do, and I think it's a good life lesson for her that she won't always win and sometimes life's unfair.

It’s not a good message to learn that you won’t always win in sport because some (male) people will be allowed to compete in the wrong sex category at significant advantage.

Learning to tolerate and accept overt unfairness is not good at all.

This isn’t learning that you can try hard but that doesn’t mean you’ll always be the best or any of the resilience building aspects of sport. This is just learning that women must step aside and even give up their sporting competitions if men want them.

Changeau · 06/04/2023 06:40

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I agree with this especially the first part!

DeadOrchid · 06/04/2023 06:41

GoodChat · 06/04/2023 06:32

See, in high level professional sport I completely agree with this being an issue. I'm fully in support of the suggestion to change the wording of governance to cover 'biological' men and women rather than just men and women to ensure access to safe spaces etc.

But these are kids and your daughter just seems to be upset that they didn't win like they normally do, and I think it's a good life lesson for her that she won't always win and sometimes life's unfair.

So you admit it’s unfair then. Why should biological girls accept losing to biological boys who have the advantage of male puberty?

What message (or to quote you ‘life lesson’) does this give to girls - step aside and be kind? Bollocks to that.

knittingaddict · 06/04/2023 06:42

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But that's not what transwomen want. If it was that's what they would be campaigning for. They aren't. The ones that compete in women's sport want to compete there, take a woman's place and her win.

No place for "bekind" here. Women need to defend their sport, with the help of anyone who sees this for what it really is. I'm furious that women have been put in this position.

Happylittlechicken · 06/04/2023 06:44

thegrain · 06/04/2023 06:39

I guess I'm just thinking I'd never pretend to be a bloke to get all the advantages they get. But yeah good point? Who am I to assume other's moral compass. I'm probably far to naive. Like there's people who identify as women in prison who were considered male when they committed their offence. Maybe that's to get into a women prison. I don't really know enough about it so best to ignore me and point me in the direction of useful resources!

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just Have a peek on the womens rights boards. I know it’s the naughty corner lol. But there is a lot of good info on there.

Changeau · 06/04/2023 06:45

knittingaddict · 06/04/2023 06:42

But that's not what transwomen want. If it was that's what they would be campaigning for. They aren't. The ones that compete in women's sport want to compete there, take a woman's place and her win.

No place for "bekind" here. Women need to defend their sport, with the help of anyone who sees this for what it really is. I'm furious that women have been put in this position.

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British Triathlon have an Open category which trans athletes have been consulted on and agreed to so it's not quite right to say that all trans athletes want to take a women's place.

SquidwardBound · 06/04/2023 06:47

It doesn’t even matter if someone is ‘faking it’ or ‘genuine’.

It’s not fair regardless how the male athlete feels or what their motivation is.

Identifying as a man doesn’t confer the advantages of being male. Identifying as a woman does not negate them.

I simply don’t understand why anyone is so keen to believe that this one is complicated. Or that ‘girls/women: be kind’ is in any way a reasonable response.

The fact that these male athletes are happy to compete knowing how unfair or us speaks volumes about them. Proud of using the advantages of their male body to beat girls and women even.

TrashyPanda · 06/04/2023 06:47

GoodChat · 06/04/2023 06:32

See, in high level professional sport I completely agree with this being an issue. I'm fully in support of the suggestion to change the wording of governance to cover 'biological' men and women rather than just men and women to ensure access to safe spaces etc.

But these are kids and your daughter just seems to be upset that they didn't win like they normally do, and I think it's a good life lesson for her that she won't always win and sometimes life's unfair.

The girls were upset because a biological male was cheating.

it’s a good life lesson for the biological male that sometimes they won’t always win and that fact should always take precedent over fiction.

why should girls stand back and let males dominate them?

TrashyPanda · 06/04/2023 06:51

British Triathlon have an Open category which trans athletes have been consulted on and agreed to so it's not quite right to say that all trans athletes want to take a women's place

so how come female athletes are not consulted about biological men competing against them?

why don’t all women competitors have to agree before men are allowed in a female category?

men have both a biological advantage and a societal advantage. They are literally running all over women.

Stepuptowardsinfinity · 06/04/2023 06:52

Nobody is denying trans people access to sport or saying they cannot participate. They just need to compete drug free in their sex category.

For those who say lower down the ranks it doesn't matter, in America it does. Many girls rely on their abilities in sports to get scholarships to top universities. If they are unable to win or be placed due to men taking the top spots then they are ineligible to be considered for these scholarships. So it has much wider ramifications than simply whether they can win or not.

Changeau · 06/04/2023 06:54

TrashyPanda · 06/04/2023 06:51

British Triathlon have an Open category which trans athletes have been consulted on and agreed to so it's not quite right to say that all trans athletes want to take a women's place

so how come female athletes are not consulted about biological men competing against them?

why don’t all women competitors have to agree before men are allowed in a female category?

men have both a biological advantage and a societal advantage. They are literally running all over women.

Well, they have been consulted in Triathlon and the rules have been changed. Sorry that you can't seem to grasp that this is a good thing for women as your post seemed very dismissive of this progress? Almost as if you can't wait to ignore it and just default to criticising trans people?

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