AIBU?
AIBU: I am so annoyed by my kids' unwarranted detention?
SueDomym · 17/03/2023 22:26
Hi people, I hope this message finds you well.
I have moved for one new year to rural France and I are taking one year of school here. They are 11+12yr old boys who have not hit puberty in any way yet. One still sleeps with a giant teddy... to say they are lovely kids - context I think, is relevant here.
My eldest was given detention on the first week of school for the 'destruction of property'. Apparently, someone had ripped some sellotape around a broken ping-pong table. So DS was given a detention. I asked my son, but he said he had done nothing. I spoke with the principal and he said that there was at least one person who had seen him doing this, a student. It was a detention and there was no more talking about it. I accepted but explained that I felt it was unfair in my son's first week of school in a place where he doesn't speak the language. I also said I believed my son.
5 months later I innocently asked two kids at the school if they knew what happened - they both told me it was the boy who did rip the selotape who blamed my kid to not get into trouble and that the principal had punished him once he found out. I had not been told this and my son was not apologised to which I felt would have been fair.
Fast forward to 2 days ago, a note was sent home with a stamped signature from the school principal. It said: Your sons were climbing a school fence and will receive one hour's detention.
So, I asked my boys about it and they said that during the long 1.5-hour break they were hanging off a grill-fence. A 'surveillante' was watching them, she said nothing and walked away.
The day after that I get an official letter with the artices of the law this punishment was under: one hour's detention for climbing on the school fence. And that the youngest son can remember to be better behaved towards his community in future. I ask my boys again, politely to see ifthey will tell the truth. They know I better with the truth than not, getting caught out for lying is worse in my opinion. Also they other boy who was with them also has his parents writing back saying they did no harm to any school equipment and would have got down had they simply been asked.
I believe my boys and want to know how to contest this decision when the boys had not been given a verbal warning first.
So, I call the school and I happen to get one of the people who watched the boys climb the wall. I asked why they didn't simply ask them to get down. She replied that there were two adults watching them. I asked if the other person had asked the boys to get down, and she replied "well they should just know". Basically, I argued with her asking why they couldn't have spoken to the boys.
She asked if I wanted to speak to her boss and I said no. I said I would like to speak to a parent-teacher representative. She told me she couldn't give out their phone numbers. She also told me if I wasn't happy with the school to take them out of this one. She finished with "I wish you a very good day" and I replied " I don't believe you.". It felt like a nasty argument.
I had some time this morning so I looked up the school rules: they have to start with a verbal warning. Detention is once parents have been spoken with.
I also spoke to two other people about this and they said that this isn't worth fighting because this is the way it is and I will not get them to back down.
I spoke with an official mediator and she said not to bother with this. If I kick up a fuss over this small punishment I will bring down the whole establishment on the boys heads - my complaints will make them suffer. Can you imagine?
Am I unreasonable in thinking that this is unfair behaviour by the school? It's a little, rural school. Everyone knows each other. I have a mobile phone. They could easily speak with me.
AIBU for expecting better communication first for such a minor offence?
Or am I just being unrealistic about the world today? (Be kind if you think so - but honest!).
I just wish I had a way of feeling less alone. I showed the letter from the school to 2 friends and they both said they have never seen a letter with a paragraph of law articles on it explaining how this detention was official. I mean.. really.
I wrote to their class teacher and the HR manager - I had no reply today.
Thanks for listening if you got this far.
Personal detail redacted by MNHQ
Am I being unreasonable?
AIBUYou have one vote. All votes are anonymous.
Tansytea · 18/03/2023 14:02
I've read the article in your link @Chickenly . They are trying to sell language lessons. If they told people how long it really took, nobody would start. I did a languages degree, I did more than an hour a day each day, I definitely wasn't fluent in the language that I started at degree level as a new language after a year and a half. I think this is rubbish. Have you actually learnt a language in the time scale suggested? Also, on those grounds, the Ukrainian teen I know who has been here a year should be virtually fluent. He isn't. People will be kind and say that it is really good, but it's fluency but not accuracy. Plus in this case, common sense tells us that within a sibling group, you aren't going to get full French immersion anyway.
Bucketheadbucketbum · 18/03/2023 14:05
Your boys are old enough to know you don't do something that could lead to damage or be dangerous. They are well past the age where they should need an adult to remind them, hence detention as per school policy. Afraid teddies and puberty have nothing to do with it. If you argue about this with the school you are sending a message to your kids that they are exempt from the expected norms of respectable social behaviour = more problems down the line. If you prefer a different method of teaxhing the lesson then you need to look at different schools with different school policies about it.
ScentOfAMemory · 18/03/2023 14:07
A child fully immersed in a country's education system, all other things being equal, would obviously be fluent enough to understand norms of behaviour and school rules after 3 months.
Particularly having a mother who is presumably conversant in the language and a grandparent who is a native speaker of the language.
Mirabai · 18/03/2023 14:10
Chickenly · 18/03/2023 13:52
www.optilingo.com/blog/french/how-long-does-it-take-to-learn-french/
Here’s the very first result on Google when asked, there are thousands of others which corroborate it. 580 hours standard for French fluency. At full immersion in French, that should be within 3 months.
Other people have experience with things too so outlining all your wealth of experience when telling someone they’re wrong (when they aren’t) tends to look worse than just Googling it yourself.
Zonder · 18/03/2023 13:45
Where did you get that little nugget from? It isn't true. I've spent years working with EAL children and have lived in 3 different countries myself. It's a myth. They might be able to say stock phrases and have some vocabulary but they won't be fluent in 3 months. Unless your idea of fluent is very low!
Although I did say I assume they already spoke French - we don't actually know that for sure.
Chickenly · 18/03/2023 13:37
They were there for five months at the point that OP “fast forwarded” to this incident. Three months full-immersion in a language is considered standard for fluency. Children learn languages faster than adults and they have a native French speaking parent. The children should easily be fluent in French by now.
Zonder · 18/03/2023 09:40
They've only been there a few months! It's a myth that children learn a language in no time. Having said that I'm assuming they already spoke French before they went, with a French mum.
Chickenly · 18/03/2023 08:22
After this long in France, children of that age should be fluent.
Sugarfree23 · 18/03/2023 08:17
@Notonstrike has hit it on the head, the school doesn't want the extra work of two non French speakers.
You either suck it up or leave. But don't make it harder for your kids.
My guess us you learnt language/s at school and/or uni.
Your link claims that if you spend 6 hours a day learning the language you can learn in 100 days. OP’s kids are not spending 6 hours learning the language, the language is being spoken around them which is not the same thing. That would also require total immersion and they may not be speaking French at home.
Realistically, they should be able to learn French from 0 to fluent in a year, but it may take longer if they’re not speaking French at home.
ScentOfAMemory · 18/03/2023 14:10
(French graduate, English teacher and writer of L2 acquisition materials, teacher trainer and academic manager in UK language school, including placing international students for short term periods into the UK system. If any of our students weren't proficient enough to not understand the school rules, we'd be concerned about cognitive issues)
ScentOfAMemory · 18/03/2023 14:11
Mirabai · 18/03/2023 14:10
My guess us you learnt language/s at school and/or uni.
Your link claims that if you spend 6 hours a day learning the language you can learn in 100 days. OP’s kids are not spending 6 hours learning the language, the language is being spoken around them which is not the same thing. That would also require total immersion and they may not be speaking French at home.
Realistically, they should be able to learn French from 0 to fluent in a year, but it may take longer if they’re not speaking French at home.
Chickenly · 18/03/2023 13:52
www.optilingo.com/blog/french/how-long-does-it-take-to-learn-french/
Here’s the very first result on Google when asked, there are thousands of others which corroborate it. 580 hours standard for French fluency. At full immersion in French, that should be within 3 months.
Other people have experience with things too so outlining all your wealth of experience when telling someone they’re wrong (when they aren’t) tends to look worse than just Googling it yourself.
Zonder · 18/03/2023 13:45
Where did you get that little nugget from? It isn't true. I've spent years working with EAL children and have lived in 3 different countries myself. It's a myth. They might be able to say stock phrases and have some vocabulary but they won't be fluent in 3 months. Unless your idea of fluent is very low!
Although I did say I assume they already spoke French - we don't actually know that for sure.
Chickenly · 18/03/2023 13:37
They were there for five months at the point that OP “fast forwarded” to this incident. Three months full-immersion in a language is considered standard for fluency. Children learn languages faster than adults and they have a native French speaking parent. The children should easily be fluent in French by now.
Zonder · 18/03/2023 09:40
They've only been there a few months! It's a myth that children learn a language in no time. Having said that I'm assuming they already spoke French before they went, with a French mum.
Chickenly · 18/03/2023 08:22
After this long in France, children of that age should be fluent.
Sugarfree23 · 18/03/2023 08:17
@Notonstrike has hit it on the head, the school doesn't want the extra work of two non French speakers.
You either suck it up or leave. But don't make it harder for your kids.
Exactly.
Acquisition by immersion takes much less time than learning a L2 in a lesson setting.
Zonder · 18/03/2023 14:15
Other people have experience with things too so outlining all your wealth of experience when telling someone they’re wrong (when they aren’t) tends to look worse than just Googling it yourself.
This is so funny @Chickenly - you are arguing against my experience using Google, then saying people shouldn't do that!
The site you have linked to is a business! Of course they're going to say they can make you fluent in a short time. It's like people believing they can become fluent using Duolingo. In practice, being fluent in a real call btect is quite different.
WigglyWigglyWiggly · 18/03/2023 14:16
Zonder · 18/03/2023 14:15
Other people have experience with things too so outlining all your wealth of experience when telling someone they’re wrong (when they aren’t) tends to look worse than just Googling it yourself.
This is so funny @Chickenly - you are arguing against my experience using Google, then saying people shouldn't do that!
The site you have linked to is a business! Of course they're going to say they can make you fluent in a short time. It's like people believing they can become fluent using Duolingo. In practice, being fluent in a real call btect is quite different.
That’s not what she said though. She said to use Google yourself before telling people that they’re wrong when they aren’t wrong because failing to Google for yourself made you look ignorant.
Chickenly · 18/03/2023 14:19
Zonder · 18/03/2023 14:15
Other people have experience with things too so outlining all your wealth of experience when telling someone they’re wrong (when they aren’t) tends to look worse than just Googling it yourself.
This is so funny @Chickenly - you are arguing against my experience using Google, then saying people shouldn't do that!
The site you have linked to is a business! Of course they're going to say they can make you fluent in a short time. It's like people believing they can become fluent using Duolingo. In practice, being fluent in a real call btect is quite different.
That’s not what I said, I think you should re-read it.
People become fluent more quickly with immersion in a country than with any lessons. You’re making it pretty clear that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
The children should be fluent by now and should have been fluent for quite a while. There’s no way in hell they should be at the stage of knowing stock phrases - my 3yo has been learning French at nursery one day each week for six months and he knows stock phrases!
Chickenly · 18/03/2023 14:24
Zonder · 18/03/2023 14:19
And I'm saying Google can't be relied on! The link they posted isn't reliable. It's a business trying to sell their language programme.
Can peer-reviewed studies be relied on to show you’re wrong?
www.cambridge.org/core/journals/studies-in-second-language-acquisition/article/abs/context-of-learning-and-second-language-fluency-in-french-comparing-regular-classroom-study-abroad-and-intensive-domestic-immersion-programs/9951FAC1116B5300B0173912BA2FE1CD
Zonder · 18/03/2023 14:30
Chickenly · 18/03/2023 14:24
Can peer-reviewed studies be relied on to show you’re wrong?
www.cambridge.org/core/journals/studies-in-second-language-acquisition/article/abs/context-of-learning-and-second-language-fluency-in-french-comparing-regular-classroom-study-abroad-and-intensive-domestic-immersion-programs/9951FAC1116B5300B0173912BA2FE1CD
Zonder · 18/03/2023 14:19
And I'm saying Google can't be relied on! The link they posted isn't reliable. It's a business trying to sell their language programme.
Well that link costs £21 for full access so I have no evidence that it shows I'm wrong. It just compares 3 methods and mentions speech fluidity, which doesn't mean full fluency, in the bit I can access.
Zonder · 18/03/2023 14:32
People become fluent more quickly with immersion in a country than with any lessons. You’re making it pretty clear that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Of course they become fluent more quickly with immersion. That's obvious. I'm disputing whether they can be fully fluent in 3 months. You only have to look at the EAL children in many schools in the UK to know that's not true. Unless you have a very low bar for what fluency means.
ChateauxNeufDePoop · 18/03/2023 14:49
SueDomym · 17/03/2023 23:24
I went to a variety of different schools in different countries (Kenya, Bahrain, France, UK) and I think I probably climbed some description of wall / fence at all of them until I was about 11.
I did no harm - exactly like in this case. But if I was asked to not do something I stopped... I was a kid and I played.
The kids in this story were watched hanging off a fence in silence by adults. The adults said nothing to them. If it was so "dangerous" and bad why not tell them off there and then?
I got a few detentions for things that had been made clear to me were not allowed and I did it again. That is normal school protocol and fair. I would know, I have worked in schools most of my adult life.
Eyerollcentral · 17/03/2023 23:10
Where did you go to school? Would you have been happy if your dangling sons had fallen off the fence or it buckled and they fell flat on their face? I bet you’d want answers then. If you can’t get on board with the school ethos and rules, home school or send them to another school without rules or punishment.
SueDomym · 17/03/2023 23:07
I know I didn't learn anything from punishment at school. I learned from teachers that could talk with kids not just bully them into conformity.
Sorry but I think it's a bit naive to think if they haven't had something spelt out to them as being wrong that they get a free pass for doing it the first time. Detention or not, they absolutely know at that age not to be hanging off a fence.
puttingontheritz · 18/03/2023 15:51
Personally I'm not sure that even the idea that people learn more quickly in the country stands up to scrutiny @Chickenly . Have you ever lived in an expat community, in France or Spain for example. It's astonishing how many people don't speak the language even after 10+ years in the country. So you might say, well those people clearly are not immersed, they don't have to do everything in whatever the language is, but the same might be true for the children in this case. School isn't total immersion, you just have to look at Welsh medium schools to realise that a child arriving with no Welsh needs extra support, and it is because they get it that it can work. There's no reason in a rural French school to imagine that there is extra help available.
ToothHurtie · 18/03/2023 22:03
@puttingontheritz would have a good point if OP were an expat but she’s not. She’s spending a year in France and her children are at a French speaking school and she speaks French. Ex-pats don’t learn the language by immersion because they aren’t immersed in it. OP’s DC’s aren’t expats and they are immersed it. Good point well made by Ritz but entirely irrelevant to this particular situation.
fitzwilliamdarcy · 18/03/2023 23:21
I used to teach in the Far East and it was like that. Behaviour was impeccable and the kids grew up into wonderful human beings, many of whom I’m still in touch with.
By contrast, the friends I have who teach here sound more like zookeepers. Except the animals would be better behaved and you don’t have to reason with their parents.
I wish the UK were more like France. Also explains why you don’t see many feral kids there running around cafes and screaming…
dollypartin · 18/03/2023 23:27
BillyDeanisnotmylover · 17/03/2023 23:10
No big deal. They did something that the school doesn’t allow. So they got detention. They won’t do it again.
Does the school sound strict? Yes.
Is it unfair? Possibly.
Should you just suck it up? Yes, if you want your kids to stay at the school.
Is a detention a big del? No.
100%
sanityisamyth · 19/03/2023 06:17
fitzwilliamdarcy · 18/03/2023 23:21
I used to teach in the Far East and it was like that. Behaviour was impeccable and the kids grew up into wonderful human beings, many of whom I’m still in touch with.
By contrast, the friends I have who teach here sound more like zookeepers. Except the animals would be better behaved and you don’t have to reason with their parents.
I wish the UK were more like France. Also explains why you don’t see many feral kids there running around cafes and screaming…
Quite.
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