Schoolgirl kicked in head by boy in unisex toilets- is the idea of unisex unworkable?

Re: people falling unconscious in toilet stalls. I used to work in a public building (not a pub/club or similar) and we regularly had unconscious people in the toilet stalls - usually because they had inhaled solvents. We had to climb over the top of cubicles many times because, even if the cubicles could be opened from the outside, the door pushed inwards and with someone unconscious on the floor, it was impossible to get the toilet door open enough to get in without severely hurting the person. We'd have had had no chance to help them if it was floor to ceiling walls and doors.

I don't think it's as rare as people seem to think.

I cannot be arsed to read the full thread as it will have the usual suspects coming on to cheer on the erasure of the boundaries of girls and women and I have no fucking time for that shit. If they have not appeared then I apologise.

It is OUTRAGEOUS that we are allowing this to happen to girls in school or anywhere else. It needs to stop. Now.

Agreed.

Why thank you.

The question was somewhat head tilt, faux innocence.

@Badbudgeter Obviously I will have to disagree with you about bad things not happening behind closed full length doors.
You seem to live in a utopia that is not recognisable in some schools or public spaces. Vents for every cubicle? Monitored toilets? All teachers and supply staff issued with special keys? You honestly haven’t seen anything untowards in the toilets you’ve cleaned? And I disagree - much easier to mop up vomit, wee and blood from a floor that doesn’t have doors scrapping against it. I live in an average area but the school kids do drugs, cut themselves etc and the pubs installed coloured lights to try and reduce drug taking in the toilets.
I haven’t told you all the stuff I have witnessed but as a teacher I have seen at least 3 different pupils having seizures in schools. Illness related. Luckily they were in visible spaces. You obviously haven’t got experience of uncontrolled epilepsy either. 600,000 people in this country have epilepsy and one third aren’t controlled with medication. On an epileptic pupil’s disability plan it stated she wasn’t to use the disabled toilets because no one would know she was there if she had a seizure as she got confused beforehand.

I had a miscarriage in a toilet and felt close to collapsing. A woman passed me more tissue paper under the gap and stayed with me. I was reminded of this when I re-watched Fleabag the other day.

After all where do you go when you’re out and about and feel ill?


Safest for everyone: Single sexed toilet blocks with doors with gaps.

Because it is so important to teach the girls that they are not entitled to privacy , dignity or even safety that you must allow males to access all their spaces. But then Bad THINGS Happen.

So then you staff the toilets to try to prevent the BaD Things Happening.

But you don’t just say to males that they should have spaces of their own and keep out of the female spaces, because that might impact on their precious right to do as they please to women. The fact that a lot of boys would prefer to have their own space doesn’t matter either, because we must all be available to the desirous at all times. Or they will ‘ scream and scream until they are sick.’

Quite.

I’m sorry,I can’t work out your statements, so I can’t follow your argument.
Are you saying that you have two children, a daughter , that is a female born child who was assaulted by other female born girls, and a child who was female born but is identifying as a male? or are they the same person? Is suppose the child who uses the staff toilet is a female identifying as a male because you say ‘he’ .

So was the female child assaulted by girls in a single sex ie female space?,and you think that being in a mixed space would prevent it?

I agree that assault is always wrong, but I don’t see how this experience is relèvent to the larger universe of female identifying females being assaulted by male identifying males.

I do think the number of people who collapse in a toilet stall are pretty rare. As someone who has cleaned public loos for a living (they should be properly cleaned self contained stall/ cubicle naked very little difference) and worked in a variety of hospitality settings with large loos I’ve never heard of anyone being found unconscious in a loo. I’d appreciate in clubs/ pubs where alcohol I’d being consumed it’s more likely.

There is a girl in my kids’ school that regularly has seizures and so can’t use the floor to ceiling mixed sex cubicles or proper unisex toilets. That didn’t seem to be a concern for HT who was very focused on defending mixed sex toilets to me. There are no female only toilets available in the main school building.

@RichardBarrister weird that it's not more of an issue in the disabled community. Accessible toilets have been private locked unisex cubicles for years.

Everyone defending these mixed spaces is simply wrong. I might agree with single sex and an additional space but statistics show mow often than not the girls spaces are change to mixed space.

When I was at school a boy who flashed my friends threatened to rape me. Hed wait outside the girls toilets for me - I still shudder when I think of it. Imagine he could've just waltzed in? I was also assaulted by another boy. We take these away and we leave girls with no safe spaces at all. School is hard enough.

Not all disabilities are visible and are best served by disabled toilets.
Lumping all disabilities together is daft. But it is an issue as people don’t think about needs. There are also pupils with special needs who won’t lock the door or close the door.

We said they’d be a disaster, and they are. Girls need spaces apart from boys.

That would be with an emergency bell in the locked unisex cubicle, and a relatively small number of users.

All the teachers/ ta's / support staff I know carry keys as everything is locked when they're not in it. I don't know what difference one more key makes at all.

I definitely saw a few messes when I cleaned public loos but they all tend to be directed at the back of the cubicle When people vomit or have an explosive bum it tends to be at worst in/ on the toilet, up the back wall, side splatter on walls and on the floor around the loo. Who would go into a loo attempt to piss/shit on the door to have to walk through it on the way out?

Our local school isn't utopia or unusual for this area and was built to government guidelines a decade ago. Our schools tend to be community campuses and house things like local library, public swimming pool, public gym, part time registrar, part time housing office all into one energy efficient building etc. As there are members of the public allowed in certain areas for example toilets, these areas are monitored during breaks to ensure safety of children. They are also covered by cctv which is watched by reception staff. I don't think it adds much to the cost of a building to ensure adequate ventilation in the toilets when they are being built. It's retrofitting old buildings which is challenging/ expensive.

I'm not disagreeing with you about single sex toilets with stalls, perfectly viable option. However right now girls have the worst of both worlds; unisex toilets with stalls and self contained cubicles are a much better option than that.

@Badbudgeter ‘self contained cubicles are a much better option than that.’
not if your seizures/stroke/heart attack/collapse/brain bleed relies on you getting help quickly in order to save your life or prevent permanent damage. As you can probably tell I have a particular very personal interest in this (and one which I haven’t talked about). Which is why I am so passionate about not having full length doors. People who sitting on the toilet, vomit and collapse forwards on to the door. And there’s a small time window of opportunity to get help before it’s catastrophic.

You can argue for full length doors all you like but you haven’t had my experience.
And after spending weeks on children’s neurological wards, unfortunately it is not that an uncommon situation. I will leave this thread now as I am saying too much.

VestaTilley · Today 21:49

We said they’d be a disaster, and they are.

But who could have predicted that they would be? Nobody. Well, nobody who isn't a hidebound ideologue, or who has taken leave of their senses.

As this is still going I just want to ask. Why do we even need to justify it. Why isn't a lack of consent enough. If its too much to say no to even one male student who wants to share with the girls then its too much if even one girl is hurt as a result surely ?

The fact that its acceptable to risk harm from allergy attacks, asthma attacks, rapes, miscarriage amd pregnancy issues , fits, drug ODs, vaping, sexual activities, etc etc so teachers, academy leaders etc can justify lying to children about their bodies and gain a certificate from stonewall, should make everyone ashamed of themselves tbh.

And everyone pushing for it is now allowing it to be openly shown to anyone and everyone that girls do not matter akd the feelings of boys and men are more important.

No should be enough. If it isn't you are simply coercing and abusing non consenting women and girls into not saying no to men and boys.

We don't need any reason other than " we don't want this " whys it require justification, acceptable collateral, and the solving of all other problems? No is no. We don't need a reason amd we don't need to explain a damn thing.

We would not accept this in any other circumstances .

Exactly @Whatwouldscullydo . Why is this even a debate.

On every level this is worse for girls.

So NO should be enough. Girls should not have to settle for second best. It's outrageous.

I dont even know why schools or any organisations are so focused on being an " ally" to whatever that they will spend copius amounts on training from external organisations that have no experience in education or finance or whatever the place does. Its like taking advice on your dog from a mechanic. Irrelevant.

The only culture schools need to do their very best to Foster is one of respect and safety. Resolve the violence and the bullying. Its ok if kids disagree with vegetarianism or religion or being gay etc. They are allowed to. What they arent allowed to do is make someone's life a misery because of it. Walk away. Mind your own business, remain civil/polite/professional etc. Thats all that should be required.

All things like this do is create issues. They cause the very problems that these so called solutions are meant to be solving.

Most probably wouldn't have given a shit about a most things. The issues arise when forced to risk your safety, having your feelings ignored, being expected to participate in stuff you don't believe etc. The MOJ only made number five in the stonewall top 100 employers and they put rapists in women's prisons. If that doesn't make these idiots question wtf u have to do to get number 4 -1 then nothing will. If its not proof that nothing will ever be enough and its a waste of time and money then people are so stupid I dont know how they survived to adult hood tbh.

I respect other people's rights to believe in whatever God they want. That doesn't affect me in any way. Unless of course you force me Into going to a church/mosque/temple or redefine myself in your terms in order to validate someone else's religion. I shouldn't have to celebrate diwali or eid or Easter to prove myself an ally.

Being safe, treated fairly, bullying dealt with, etc should be enough fir every student. Its all any one can ask for really. When did it stop being enough and why are people paying money they don't have to participate in something that won't ever end and is creating hostility st every turn.

To add to this comment @Badbudgeter

There are more epileptics in this country than there are trans people. And they are not the only people with medical conditions causing seizures. My teen dd has RAS, these are more common amongst young children and caused by an overload of the vagus nerve. She was diagnosed by a cardiologist and her heart stops beating. They happen fast. She had one in the shower recently and had just enough time to stop the water and lie down inside the shower.

Like hell do I want her locked in a floor to ceiling room at school to make way for mixed sex provision. Quite frankly I don’t care how often the scenario does or or does not play out. Medical conditions should come first.

As this is still going I just want to ask. Why do we even need to justify it. Why isn't a lack of consent enough. If its too much to say no to even one male student who wants to share with the girls then its too much if even one girl is hurt as a result surely ?

The schools seem very happy to tell the kids that their feelings don’t matter, the money is already spent, so tough luck.

They are sending a message loud and clear that girls are expected to put up with boys in what should be female only spaces. I wonder who benefits from that.

And @Mummyoflittledragon - gosh, what a worry for you. In their rush to pander to the Stonewall edicts to remove as many single sex spaces as possible (and discriminate on the basis of sex), they totally ignore their PSED responsibilities to the other protected characteristics like Disability and Religious Beliefs.

This is an absolute disgrace.

I wonder if some parents will start ditching schools and start setting up group homeschooling?

They can join the increasingly large network of parents of SEND children who have had to resort to this because school became inaccessible for their kids.

Yes I'm one of those. The ONLY positive is that my vulnerable gender non conforming autistic daughter hasn't had to be exposed to gender ideology in school.

Which is a massive relief.