Schoolgirl kicked in head by boy in unisex toilets- is the idea of unisex unworkable?

[Xoxoxoxoxoxox]

A boy in a school toilets in Coventry has kicked in a door in in an attempt to photograph a 13 yr old girl and she has received head injuries.
When unisex toilets were introduced we were told they would be closely monitored but that is clearly ineffective and they are unsafe for girls.
Do you think they should be abolished?

Yabu Allow them
Yanbu Abolish them.

www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-schoolgirl-taken-hospital-after-26418069

[Ramblingnamechanger]

Bullying happens whatever the sex, but girls/ women are not more violent than boys/ men. Research into what happens in many mixed sex schools shows that generally it is intimidation/ assaults by boys that means girls are suffering. I think more single sex schools should exist. Likewise single sex facilities in mixed sex schools. As others have said, why increase the problems? As for the so called trans kids….there is no such thing.

[ChestnutGrove]

People giving examples of attacks carried out by girls doesn't change the fact that far more violence and sexual crimes are carried out by males.

[Hankunamatata]

The only way they will work is like my local library where each toilet is completely individual like a disabled toilet

[ChestnutGrove]

@Hankunamatata

The only way they will work is like my local library where each toilet is completely individual like a disabled toilet

Teachers have been saying on this thread that "floor to ceiling doors mean there’s more likelihood of sexual activity, drug taking and vandalism (as well as risks to not being visible if people have collapsed behind the doors). Also smells linger and cleaning is more difficult"

[Ooompaloopa]

It’s interesting that there is the notion of staff toilets.

I wonder if the staff would be happy to share toilets with teenager boys.

If it’s all about equality then why are staff afforded more privacy, dignity and safety?

[nilsmousehammer]

There are several issues here to deal with.

• Appalling behaviour in toilets apparently being now a major issue in secondary education
  
• Increasing rates of rape and sexual assault in schools (female children very much mostly the victims and male children very much mostly the perpetrators)
  
• Children identifying as sexes other than their actual one, and male children in particular being encouraged to see being in the presence of undressing females where no male is usually permitted as a huge badge to win in their transition process (general lack of care or respect for female privacy, dignity, human rights and equality of consideration being a major issue, hence the massive rate of male children assaulting female ones)
  
• Major political lobbies being heavily against female rights as this gets in the way of males of all ages doing what they want and intentionally fucking about vigorously with schools via training, hammering at boundaries and safeguarding and pressing a belief that the rights of male children are always greater than anything a mere female child might feel or need, and that inclusion is a male only thing specific to the T word.
  
  There are no easy answers. But giving up and just accepting shit experiences is part of the biological burden of being born female and letting female children suffer is not going to be one of them. Anyone arguing that this is 'for the greater good' is several sandwiches short of a picnic.

[Girlfromclapham]

Yanbu. There are mixed sex toilets at my DC's school. My dc hated them and would try to hold off using the toilet until they got home. Talking to friends - their dc all did the same.

[nilsmousehammer]

Oh and all in the context of the major issue:

• female children have specific biological need in toilet spaces, that only apply to their sex class, which are the source of much stress and distress in the teenaged years, and a time when privacy and dignity to manage this is crucial. However 'biology' is now a dirty word, so is 'female', and there is much political pressure to lie and lie and lie in an attempt to vanish all this for the stroking of male feelings and egos.
  
  Which apparently many people have not realised is a totally shit thing to be doing.

[Ofcourseshecan]

@Helleofabore

Sure.

But why add to ways that children can get access to their targets?

Mixed toilets may not be the problem for HER. But it might well be the problem for many girls for many different reasons. Bullying is just one of them.

Another is the number of girls who are no longer even using the toilets at school and suffering health issues because of it. Or missing parts of lessons so they can change their period products when there is less chance a boy will hear.

So, sure. Not your or your daughter's problem. But it does not detract one iota from being other girl's problems.

Exactly. There are problems with every kind of mixed-sex toilet. And there’s no valid reason for them.

Single-sex toilets are safer for girls/women and allow them privacy. Why change them?

[Ooompaloopa]

@nilsmousehammer

There are several issues here to deal with.

• Appalling behaviour in toilets apparently being now a major issue in secondary education
  
• Increasing rates of rape and sexual assault in schools (female children very much mostly the victims and male children very much mostly the perpetrators)
  
• Children identifying as sexes other than their actual one, and male children in particular being encouraged to see being in the presence of undressing females where no male is usually permitted as a huge badge to win in their transition process (general lack of care or respect for female privacy, dignity, human rights and equality of consideration being a major issue, hence the massive rate of male children assaulting female ones)
  
• Major political lobbies being heavily against female rights as this gets in the way of males of all ages doing what they want and intentionally fucking about vigorously with schools via training, hammering at boundaries and safeguarding and pressing a belief that the rights of male children are always greater than anything a mere female child might feel or need, and that inclusion is a male only thing specific to the T word.
  
  There are no easy answers. But giving up and just accepting shit experiences is part of the biological burden of being born female and letting female children suffer is not going to be one of them. Anyone arguing that this is 'for the greater good' is several sandwiches short of a picnic.

Major political lobbies being heavily against female rights as this gets in the way of males of all ages doing what they want and intentionally fucking about vigorously with schools via training, hammering at boundaries and safeguarding and pressing a belief that the rights of male children are always greater than anything a mere female child might feel or need, and that inclusion is a male only thing specific to the T word.

I am really interested in this - can you point to who these are and who they are affiliated with and why - because not wanting to sound like a conspiracy theorist I often wonder why the disproportionate response to different issues.

Do we think then that there is a right wing patriarchal political agenda to subjugate women and they are achieving this by agitation via indirectly through trans rights activism - who they actually don’t care about (probably despise if they are right wing) but are inflating their cause just to subjugate women or create a culture which is deliberately polarising and decisive which makes for easier influence in elections to pitch left vs right?

[SaturdayGiraffe]

Collecting photos of girls cowering in fear while trying to hide evidence of their periods and genitals is the new Pokémon, don’t you know?

Somehow I expect this will be girls’ fault.

[nilsmousehammer]

Well Stonewall would be one of the major political lobbies, both Scotland and England have a number of others, directly funded by government to lobby government, with policies easily found online which represent this highly anti-female belief system. All wrapped up in terribly nice language of course, but only interested in removing boundaries such as single sex protections and focusing on 'inclusion' as a male only thing regardless of the exclusionary effect upon groups of women. You will find no reciprocal care for female needs anywhere in those policies, I'd recommend reading them. Affiliated largely with each other.

I wish this was just a tin hat conspiracy, but the evidence is right there, they are not shy about the agenda nor about the total lack of care or capacity to see females as equally human.

[Emotionalstorm]

@Hankunamatata

The only way they will work is like my local library where each toilet is completely individual like a disabled toilet

I still wouldn't want to share those with men because they're so messy.

[nilsmousehammer]

It is also a mistake to believe that the desire to subjugate women is a right wing only thing. The left wing are extremely misogynist, and extremist left wing beliefs merely differ in seeing women and children as public property where the extremist right wing see women and children as personal property.

[Helleofabore]

@nilsmousehammer

There are several issues here to deal with.

• Appalling behaviour in toilets apparently being now a major issue in secondary education
  
• Increasing rates of rape and sexual assault in schools (female children very much mostly the victims and male children very much mostly the perpetrators)
  
• Children identifying as sexes other than their actual one, and male children in particular being encouraged to see being in the presence of undressing females where no male is usually permitted as a huge badge to win in their transition process (general lack of care or respect for female privacy, dignity, human rights and equality of consideration being a major issue, hence the massive rate of male children assaulting female ones)
  
• Major political lobbies being heavily against female rights as this gets in the way of males of all ages doing what they want and intentionally fucking about vigorously with schools via training, hammering at boundaries and safeguarding and pressing a belief that the rights of male children are always greater than anything a mere female child might feel or need, and that inclusion is a male only thing specific to the T word.
  
  There are no easy answers. But giving up and just accepting shit experiences is part of the biological burden of being born female and letting female children suffer is not going to be one of them. Anyone arguing that this is 'for the greater good' is several sandwiches short of a picnic.

Yes.

And removing the female single sex toilets also means that a girl who had experienced any kind of sexual abuse from a male student has no respite at all. Imagine if she still has to attend that school and ends up using the toilets at the same time.

There are so many scenarios that negatively affect the girls in these situations.

[StephanieSuperpowers]

I don't think that describing women as "rights hoarding dinosaurs" comes from a place of intense respect for women. I do think there's plenty of hostility towards woman bleating on about their rights.

[Ooompaloopa]

@nilsmousehammer

Well Stonewall would be one of the major political lobbies, both Scotland and England have a number of others, directly funded by government to lobby government, with policies easily found online which represent this highly anti-female belief system. All wrapped up in terribly nice language of course, but only interested in removing boundaries such as single sex protections and focusing on 'inclusion' as a male only thing regardless of the exclusionary effect upon groups of women. You will find no reciprocal care for female needs anywhere in those policies, I'd recommend reading them. Affiliated largely with each other.

I wish this was just a tin hat conspiracy, but the evidence is right there, they are not shy about the agenda nor about the total lack of care or capacity to see females as equally human.

Thank you for that - so do you see Stonewall as an inadvertent puppet of right wing governments - or are they the masters? Do they see themselves as left or right? Or is it more complex than that?

[Badbudgeter]

@Tinysoxxx

No
cubicles with full length doors are more dangerous, less hygienic and more expensive to maintain.

These are what are recommended as best practice in Scottish schools. In a high school near me there are 5 self contained loos on each side of the corridor. Communal sink on either side too. There’s cctv and the corridor is monitored at break times. After being unisex for years they’ve decided one side for girls the other for boys.

Relatively new building though. I don’t see how they are dangerous/ unhygienic/ hard to maintain.

[Ooompaloopa]

@Badbudgeter

These are what are recommended as best practice in Scottish schools. In a high school near me there are 5 self contained loos on each side of the corridor. Communal sink on either side too. There’s cctv and the corridor is monitored at break times. After being unisex for years they’ve decided one side for girls the other for boys.

Relatively new building though. I don’t see how they are dangerous/ unhygienic/ hard to maintain.

That’s interesting - so it’s come full circle?

Was that an official process to nominate back to male and female and how does that sit with inclusion for trans children - do they then just decide which side of the corridor they want to use? Or is there a designated 3rd space?

It seems that single cubicles opening up directly onto a public corridor is the only way to go if you want to get rid of single sex and communal unisex toilets cause issues of safety, privacy and dignity for teenage girls.

[Tinysoxxx]

@Badbudgeter

These are what are recommended as best practice in Scottish schools. In a high school near me there are 5 self contained loos on each side of the corridor. Communal sink on either side too. There’s cctv and the corridor is monitored at break times. After being unisex for years they’ve decided one side for girls the other for boys.

Relatively new building though. I don’t see how they are dangerous/ unhygienic/ hard to maintain.

@Badbudgeter

I wrote this on 15/3 on this post but I will repeat it again here because you said you don’t understand how they are more dangerous:


I have copied and pasted a previous post of mine. Apologies for the length. But it’s relevant to those who are talking about girl violence. If you want to skip most of it, just read 7. and click the bottom link

The below is taken from this and I have added some personal bits:

www.wcportables.co.uk/blog/why-public-toilet-doors-do-not-reach-the-floor/

Some reasons why public toilet doors do not reach the floor:

Ideal in cases of emergency: The gap could help other users notice someone who has collapsed or fainted in an enclosed stall. In these circumstances, a toilet user or a member of an emergency team can squeeze through the gaps to provide help to the affected individual. It could be the difference in a life-threatening situation.

My friends and I saw an arm sticking out the door gap in a nightclub. My friend shimmied over the top. There was a girl in there grey coloured, covered in vomit and unconscious. We moved her so the door could open (inwards) and called an ambulance. It happened so quickly and never thought about it until my own child went to university.

There are hundreds of thousands of epileptics in this country whose seizures aren’t controlled by medication. Sometimes people feel ill before a seizure, sometimes not and wouldn’t have no time to pull a cord.

The overall cost is cheaper. Designing and constructing a door that extends to the floor might cost more. This could be due to the complexity of the design, material and labour hours. This may explain why some management teams opt for toilet doors that have a considerable gap from the floor.

Also means the doors don’t get jammed as they warp.

It makes cleaning easier: Cleaners can easily extend the floor mops into the stalls without having to open the doors. They can also evaluate the state of the toilet via the gap between the floor and door. It saves cleaning time and encourages frequent or a short interval cleaning routine.

They can get to all crevices, particularly with all sorts of fluids not encrusting the door.

Faster escape of bad odour: Toilet is a natural environment for the release of bad odour. The gap between the door and the floor provides a quick escape of the foul smell that was generated by previous users.
It helps your toilet experience to become bearable. Without the gap, the odour is sustained in a stall and becomes unbearable to subsequent users

Easy to determine availability: The uniqueness of modern-day toilet locks can make it quite hard to tell if a stall is empty. As some toilets use a green indication for a vacant facility and red for those occupied. Nothing beats the eyes test of glancing through the gap for any sign of occupancy.

As an ex-teacher I used to do sweeps of the toilet blocks in a fire practice. If a cubicle was locked, I gave a
shout then looked under the gap. What would I have done in a real emergency with a locked full-length door? I don’t know

Ensures the toilet queue flows: Toilets with doors of this nature could negatively impact people’s privacy. When individuals sense others can listen to their business that easily, they are prone to wrap up quickly.

Reduced bad toilet habits or behaviours: As we have earlier indicated, raised toilet doors can limit the privacy of users. With this in mind, people will refrain from exhibiting poor behaviour. The embarrassment of being spotted acting inappropriately will ensure people err on the side of caution.

It was documented and discussed that there one as least one rape per school day in U.K. schools reported (Parliament and BBC article). As a teacher I am shocked but wondered where these can happen. Obviously anywhere that decreases visibility increases the chance of bad things happening - particularly if it’s mixed sexed toilets so each sex has a reason to be there. Also drug taking.

Adrian Chiles did an article in the Guardian about how much he liked the new gender neutral toilets with their full length doors. This was due to it being a much nicer experience for him to sit down poo in peace as he was traumatised by children looking over at him at school when he was on the toilet. He suggested piped music to make the experience even better. Obviously hadn’t even crossed his mind about the very, very good safety and hygiene reasons for toilets being designed as they are.

Link for rapes in schools evidence:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34138287

[ChestnutGrove]

Even if someone posts that their entire family is regularly hospitalised by girls trying to take photos of them with their pants down, it still won't change the fact that perpetrators of violence and sexual assault are far more likely to be male

[Emotionalstorm]

@nilsmousehammer

It is also a mistake to believe that the desire to subjugate women is a right wing only thing. The left wing are extremely misogynist, and extremist left wing beliefs merely differ in seeing women and children as public property where the extremist right wing see women and children as personal property.

I personally find that the left wing is meaner to women and more of a threat to women's rights than the right wing.

[Badbudgeter]

@Ooompaloopa

That’s interesting - so it’s come full circle?

Was that an official process to nominate back to male and female and how does that sit with inclusion for trans children - do they then just decide which side of the corridor they want to use? Or is there a designated 3rd space?

It seems that single cubicles opening up directly onto a public corridor is the only way to go if you want to get rid of single sex and communal unisex toilets cause issues of safety, privacy and dignity for teenage girls.

Trans is not a major issue in their school at the moment but yes they could choose which side of the corridor to use, it wouldn’t really have much impact on fellow students though as self contained. The pupil council asked for it due to boys leaving wee on the seats.

I think it’s positive that children are empowered to change their environment. They also managed to convince the school they should be allowed to wear black jeans/ black trainers as a school uniform option.

[Badbudgeter]

@Tinysoxxx

@Badbudgeter

I wrote this on 15/3 on this post but I will repeat it again here because you said you don’t understand how they are more dangerous:


I have copied and pasted a previous post of mine. Apologies for the length. But it’s relevant to those who are talking about girl violence. If you want to skip most of it, just read 7. and click the bottom link

The below is taken from this and I have added some personal bits:

www.wcportables.co.uk/blog/why-public-toilet-doors-do-not-reach-the-floor/

Some reasons why public toilet doors do not reach the floor:

Ideal in cases of emergency: The gap could help other users notice someone who has collapsed or fainted in an enclosed stall. In these circumstances, a toilet user or a member of an emergency team can squeeze through the gaps to provide help to the affected individual. It could be the difference in a life-threatening situation.

My friends and I saw an arm sticking out the door gap in a nightclub. My friend shimmied over the top. There was a girl in there grey coloured, covered in vomit and unconscious. We moved her so the door could open (inwards) and called an ambulance. It happened so quickly and never thought about it until my own child went to university.

There are hundreds of thousands of epileptics in this country whose seizures aren’t controlled by medication. Sometimes people feel ill before a seizure, sometimes not and wouldn’t have no time to pull a cord.

The overall cost is cheaper. Designing and constructing a door that extends to the floor might cost more. This could be due to the complexity of the design, material and labour hours. This may explain why some management teams opt for toilet doors that have a considerable gap from the floor.

Also means the doors don’t get jammed as they warp.

It makes cleaning easier: Cleaners can easily extend the floor mops into the stalls without having to open the doors. They can also evaluate the state of the toilet via the gap between the floor and door. It saves cleaning time and encourages frequent or a short interval cleaning routine.

They can get to all crevices, particularly with all sorts of fluids not encrusting the door.

Faster escape of bad odour: Toilet is a natural environment for the release of bad odour. The gap between the door and the floor provides a quick escape of the foul smell that was generated by previous users.
It helps your toilet experience to become bearable. Without the gap, the odour is sustained in a stall and becomes unbearable to subsequent users

Easy to determine availability: The uniqueness of modern-day toilet locks can make it quite hard to tell if a stall is empty. As some toilets use a green indication for a vacant facility and red for those occupied. Nothing beats the eyes test of glancing through the gap for any sign of occupancy.

As an ex-teacher I used to do sweeps of the toilet blocks in a fire practice. If a cubicle was locked, I gave a
shout then looked under the gap. What would I have done in a real emergency with a locked full-length door? I don’t know

Ensures the toilet queue flows: Toilets with doors of this nature could negatively impact people’s privacy. When individuals sense others can listen to their business that easily, they are prone to wrap up quickly.

Reduced bad toilet habits or behaviours: As we have earlier indicated, raised toilet doors can limit the privacy of users. With this in mind, people will refrain from exhibiting poor behaviour. The embarrassment of being spotted acting inappropriately will ensure people err on the side of caution.

It was documented and discussed that there one as least one rape per school day in U.K. schools reported (Parliament and BBC article). As a teacher I am shocked but wondered where these can happen. Obviously anywhere that decreases visibility increases the chance of bad things happening - particularly if it’s mixed sexed toilets so each sex has a reason to be there. Also drug taking.

Adrian Chiles did an article in the Guardian about how much he liked the new gender neutral toilets with their full length doors. This was due to it being a much nicer experience for him to sit down poo in peace as he was traumatised by children looking over at him at school when he was on the toilet. He suggested piped music to make the experience even better. Obviously hadn’t even crossed his mind about the very, very good safety and hygiene reasons for toilets being designed as they are.

Link for rapes in schools evidence:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34138287

I do think the number of people who collapse in a toilet stall are pretty rare. As someone who has cleaned public loos for a living (they should be properly cleaned self contained stall/ cubicle naked very little difference) and worked in a variety of hospitality settings with large loos I’ve never heard of anyone being found unconscious in a loo. I’d appreciate in clubs/ pubs where alcohol I’d being consumed it’s more likely.

As for odours, in my experience, every cubicle has an extractor fan. The doors are standard doors. Cubicle is constructed from standard 2 by 4 and plasterboard. There’s a maintenance corridor that runs behind the toilets. I don’t think they’d cost more to maintain. Obviously this would be expensive to retrofit but I’m talking about a newish building.


As for girls safety Id be much more concerned about my daughter being followed into a unisex toilet block by a male than being forced into a self contained toilet cubicle off a corridor. Partly due to monitoring by cctv. All the kids know it’s there and so they behave. They also know where doesn’t have cctv.

As for toilet checks you’d get a key issued same as janitorial staff to open toilets from the outside.

I’d personally be happy to use self contained or single sex loos but I’m not willing to share stalls with the opposite sex. I wouldn’t expect teenagers to either.

[nilsmousehammer]

The 'its only a small number' argument is the same one used to justify women being raped in prisons.

I'm sure the woman rescued in the post the OP quoted would not be happy to be collateral damage with her death in the name of permitting male people to end female only facilities. Which is really all it boils down to.