To have refused to get out of my car for the police in the middle of the night?

[AngeloMysterioso]

Was driving home from work at just after 2 a.m last night when I was pulled over by a pair of male coppers in a squad car after I swerved in the road to avoid a pothole.

I stopped, lowered my window a crack and then turned the engine off and made sure all the doors were locked. They both got out of the car and came over, asked about where I was going, where I’d been etc etc and then asked about the swerve- I explained about the pothole, and that I didn’t consider the move to have been dangerous as there were no other vehicles or anywhere near me (they had been some distance in front of me at the time and on the other side of the road but there was absolutely no chance of a collision) and no pedestrians anywhere around.
Then they asked if I would get out of the car and take a breathalyser test. I refused- I said I’d happily drive to the police station (maybe a mile- mile and a half away) and take a breathalyser there, but that I didn’t feel safe getting out of my car and being alone with two massive blokes in the middle of the night with no other people around, and them being in a uniform didn’t change that for me.

They asked a few more questions about my work, if they needed to would anyone be able to verify that I’d been working, gave me a lecture about driving safely and in the end let me go home with no further action taken - but I’ve just had a phonecall from another police officer basically telling me off for not just doing as I was told.

Was I BU?

Oh and I think I said this further up the thread, but the OP wound the window down slightly so they would have smelled alcohol (or weed).

Today WhatsApp messages between Couzens and his colleagues have been released, 2 of which have been given a prison sentence another 4 have lost their jobs. In these messages they joked on graphic detail about raping a female colleague and domestic violence victims, saying the latter ‘loved it’ and that’s why they are repeat victims of abuse. Sexual assault and misogynistic messages aside they also joked about tasering children and disabled people. That’s seven officers and just ONE case. Sarah Everard will be ingrained in our public consciousness for a long time, but there are multiple other high profile cases of abuse towards women and young girls involving multiple police officers that I am sure most people on this thread will be aware of. We are not even aware of them all. 800 cases of DV and sexual assault committed by police officers are currently being investigated in the MET alone.

If someone is committing a crime, or indeed driving erratically they should be investigated. The police officers were not wrong to pull OP over if she was doing the latter. It must also be absolutely soul destroying for decent police officers, who genuinely want to make a difference and do a good job, to be faced with inherent mistrust or indeed abuse themselves. But public trust has been shattered, so it is completely unreasonable to say Women are hysterical or ignorant to feel fear when cases of abuse are well publicised and unfortunately not a rarity. OP - YANBU to be cautious.

They wouldn’t have smelled other drugs though would they ? Would the op still have refused if they had decided they needed a field sobriety test ?

Nope. Read the OP. The police weren’t following. They were on the other side of the road so wouldn’t have encountered the pothole - just seen the OP swerve.

Conveniently sidestepping the question as to whether you would call them at 2am if you suspected an intruder at home.

Precisely, A disgusting culture that has made women rightly scared of the police. The people who don't get it are never going to get it, but what do I know... just another over the top hysterical woman.

Horrific.

Respect and trust is earned, and once lost it needs actual work to regain it.

The first step to do that is to listen to women, instead of repeatedly berating them for being afraid/uneasy/distrustful.

Telling women they are hysterical, or chiding them for their fear/anxiety/mistrust is counter productive.

The difference is so blindingly obvious I would have thought it didn't need explaining.

You, on the otherhand, are still sidestepping dealing with the fundamental issues that the police have lost a great deal of public trust and it's on them to get it back.

Explain it then. I’m all ears.

You don't understand the difference between calling the police to ask for help, and being pulled over by a police officer?

When I was in my early 20s something similar happened to me. I was on an unfamiliar A road, it was badly lit and the road was windy so I was taking it slowly but not ridiculously slow. I was pulled over and they said it was a sign of drink driving going slower than the speed limit when the road was so quiet. They couldn't ask me to get out as it was too unsafe there so they asked me to follow them to a garage. I did as I was told but after when I told people they said they wouldn't have done that as they could have been taking me somewhere to get me alone. Luckily they were lovely but you can't be too safe, I wish I had been switched on enough to say I'd go to a police station.

I agree.

Anybody who mentions on their CV that they're a rapist or murderer should immediately be removed from the application process.

Of course I do. And you just made my point. You’re advocating only trusting them when it suits you.

That's correct. As I said, trust is not something one can instruct someone to have. It has to be earned. Women make decisions on risk and safety all of the time.

If I call 999, someone (the call handler, for a start) knows a police officer is coming and they know who is sent.

By the side of a road, at 2am, you don't even know whether it's a legit police car (not stolen), let alone which police officer is in it and whether they've called anything in. There's no third party awareness. I'd always want to either speak to the non-emergency number or move to a public place.

This is such an important thread. THANK YOU OP for doing this and posting. I'm not sure if I missed an update but wondered what your response was to the officer who rang you to reprimand. I'd be tempted to take it further and shine a light on the incident.

I'm saddened by the number of people on this thread who wouldn't think twice about getting out the car. It's not the "one-off" incidents of Couzens that have worn down our trust but the statistics of the sheer number of officers facing charges and embroiled in misogynistic responses to crimes against women. Did those posters forget about the police response to Biba Henry and Nicole Smallman????

WhatsApp groups and the overall culture of police say it all. Black people have felt this way for years, especially in London where every Black male I know has been stopped and searched numerous times.

Until there's a sea change in their recruitment and culture we have to take care of ourselves.

That's literally how trust works. You decide whether you trust someone based on the situation.

At 2am in a deserted street I'm far less likely to trust anyone than I am at 3pm in a busy shop.

If you call the police you are asking for their help. If they randomly stop you at 2am for no reason you are not. This is so vanishingly simple I suspect you are being willfully obtuse.

Well put.

I can kind of see both sides here. I suspect the police are aware of how random stops of lone women at any time of day would look in light of the controversy surrounding them at the moment. But this wasn’t a random stop. They saw the OP swerve and stopped her because they suspected drink driving. What are the police supposed to do in those circumstances, given that they have a duty to make sure the breathalyser is used correctly, and have hands on it at all times, so that there are no technical issues for the defence to exploit in the event of a positive test ?

I also struggle to see the difference between the two scenarios. I appreciate the fact that if you call 999 in an emergency situation you are asking for their help, but the trust issues are the same. Yes, a 999 call will be logged and it will be known who has attended, but police are accountable for roadside stops too. And what if a woman is suspected of drug driving and asked to take a field sobriety test ? You can’t complete that without getting out of the car, and a refusal has the same consequences as refusing a breath test. At some point, if refusals to stop, or refusals to exit the car become widespread, I do wonder what the consequences will be for law and order.

Er, the police let OP drive on so your argument is redundant.

Not really - the poster was arguing that it would have been fine to let the OP drive to the station, after she was stopped on suspicion of drink driving !!

Of course you would call them. What’s that got to do with this situation?

Yes, a 999 call will be logged and it will be known who has attended, but police are accountable for roadside stops too.

Legitimate ones. Nobody needs to know if they don't tell anyone. Where's the guarantee?

WhatsApp groups and the overall culture of police say it all. Black people have felt this way for years, especially in London where every Black male I know has been stopped and searched numerous times.

This is why the police now seems at great pains to overhaul their image. They've effectively fucked with the wrong people. You can't have scores of white women saying they won't cooperate with the police because of mistrust yet expect Black people to carry on with business as usual. This is a mess of the police's own making because they've gone rogue and have been confronted with the resistance of a group who actually don't have to tolerate it.

'If the police are unhappy about women not feeling safe around them, they could always have a bash at not employing misogynists, serial rapists and murderers.'

This in spades. The could also not joke about rape and abuse of women, they could not turn a blind eye to dodgy colleagues and behaviour, they could not cover up or defend bad behaviour from colleagues.

These officers feel safe to do what they want knowing they're protected by the 'code' of officers that means the wagons are circled when it comes to accusations.