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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To have refused to get out of my car for the police in the middle of the night?

871 replies

AngeloMysterioso · 02/03/2023 17:05

Was driving home from work at just after 2 a.m last night when I was pulled over by a pair of male coppers in a squad car after I swerved in the road to avoid a pothole.

I stopped, lowered my window a crack and then turned the engine off and made sure all the doors were locked. They both got out of the car and came over, asked about where I was going, where I’d been etc etc and then asked about the swerve- I explained about the pothole, and that I didn’t consider the move to have been dangerous as there were no other vehicles or anywhere near me (they had been some distance in front of me at the time and on the other side of the road but there was absolutely no chance of a collision) and no pedestrians anywhere around.
Then they asked if I would get out of the car and take a breathalyser test. I refused- I said I’d happily drive to the police station (maybe a mile- mile and a half away) and take a breathalyser there, but that I didn’t feel safe getting out of my car and being alone with two massive blokes in the middle of the night with no other people around, and them being in a uniform didn’t change that for me.

They asked a few more questions about my work, if they needed to would anyone be able to verify that I’d been working, gave me a lecture about driving safely and in the end let me go home with no further action taken - but I’ve just had a phonecall from another police officer basically telling me off for not just doing as I was told.

Was I BU?

OP posts:
SayyestotheDog · 03/03/2023 21:08

MiniFig · 03/03/2023 11:54

I’m not dismissing women’s concerns, I’m saying very clearly I think, that everything is a risk and we need to weigh that risk up. Two policemen in uniform with body cams on clearly on duty in a marked police car stoping you for a clear issue is very low risk.

that is your assessment. Mine is that until i know otherwise i will be as wary as i want if stopped by the police when I'm on my own, it's night and nobody is around.

And as plenty of posters have said on this thread it would be a good idea if the police (all forces) gave us their assurance that they will take our concerns seriously (i won't hold my breath) and - since it is their job not mine - tell us what the procedure could / should / would be were we to find ourselves in this situation.

I've only had a few real encounters with the police in my life. One I've recounted here. The others were with me as a victim. One went really well and they were fantastic. The other? not so much. I have literal contempt for the 2 officers (one male, one female) who handled that.

I bet black mumsnetters are laughing at the naivetee on this thread, or shaking their fists saying "we've been saying this forever".

Totally agree. Institutionally the police is misogynistic. In the same way it institutionally is racist. It needs a full reckoning & until the message filters through more & more women are going to mistrust them in light of recent events. It needs overhauling.

On a similar note I listened to a R4 programme about misogyny in the Fire Service & the (horrific) abuse female firefighters routinely encounter from male colleagues & the institution.

It’s not just about bad apples.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 03/03/2023 21:09

SnackSizeRaisin · 03/03/2023 20:48

So no.prison sentence then. Thought not.

Sentencing guidelines for failure to provide a breath-test are here. Maximum 6 months in prison.

To have refused to get out of my car for the police in the middle of the night?
sealon82 · 03/03/2023 21:09

All the posters that don't agree with not getting out the car.. What do you think needs to happen to help fix trust between women and the police?
Or are you of the opinion that no matter what we've seen on the news ect we should live in a society that doesn't answer back and just obeys regardless of fear?

MiniFig · 03/03/2023 21:11

All the posters that don't agree with not getting out the car.. What do you think needs to happen to help fix trust between women and the police?

it is not our job to fix this - it is up to the police.
First they urgently need to give good guidance to their own officers and to the public about what to do in situations like this.

And then they have to SHOW (not tell) that they are undertaking a root and branch overhaul of the service. And getting rid of all those bad apples

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 03/03/2023 21:12

sealon82 · 03/03/2023 21:09

All the posters that don't agree with not getting out the car.. What do you think needs to happen to help fix trust between women and the police?
Or are you of the opinion that no matter what we've seen on the news ect we should live in a society that doesn't answer back and just obeys regardless of fear?

It's not a question of that. It's whether the risks of refusing to get out the car are greater than complying.

If you get out the car and blow a normal breath-test, you are free to go.

If you refuse to get out of the car, the police can arrest you, hand-cuff you and detain you.

Which is the safer option, in your view?

Novatherova · 03/03/2023 21:14

SpyouttheLand · 03/03/2023 19:16

So you think he's misogynistic towards his wife but not towards the women he comes across in his work? Doesn't that seem unlikey?

I'm sorry about your mum.

I don't know. He's really quiet so I don't know he would vocalise it or even admit it to himself.

It might just be me that he doesn't respect because as I say he is caring and kind. But with me he doesn't display those attributes towards me very much.

He isn't mean or nasty. But his opinion of me isn't great and his attitude shows itself with comments like that.

AdventFridgeOfShame · 03/03/2023 21:18

He does not need to be nasty @Novatherova at work he will be subjected to some extreme opinions (I've been there) if he is nice and quiet and complicit, the rapists will operate in plain sight around him. That is the fault of the institution and a nice but slightly misogynistic man like your DH will be dragged along.

Novatherova · 03/03/2023 21:18

ArabellaScott · 03/03/2023 18:45

I'm sorry about your arm, hope you're okay.

Aw thank you.

Sorry if I seem an idiot in my defence of the police. It's hard when your family members are in it and friends.

However today has reminded me that what you see at face value isn't always what you end up with.

It's a sad world we live in when women can't even trust the police now.

sealon82 · 03/03/2023 21:20

In my view I'd risk arrest. I have experienced sexual assault by a professional that should have been there to help and protect. Maybe our life experiences give us different perspectives. (If that sounds sarcastic I don't mean to be)

Lou670 · 03/03/2023 21:22

@AdventFridgeOfShame That is really personal towards someone's marriage. This thread is not about her marriage to a police officer.

Againstmachine · 03/03/2023 21:30

Ourladycheesusedatum · 03/03/2023 18:44

Two blokes were pulled over on the main road where I am, three in the morning, official looking coppers, official police car so all lights and sirens etc.
Problem was, they had stolen the police car, were impersonating police officers and stole my mates car. They did all the spiel, were convincing, so convincing they did the same trick 14 times. Stole 14 cars that night, dumped the police car, burnt out for good measure. Last November iirc

Not a prayer I would get out if my car nowadays for two male police officers, and might be just as reluctant if one was female. I've never seen a warrant card, wouldnt know what it was if it smacked me in the face, so no use waving one at me.

As has been mentioned already, they police with our consent. If they clean up their act, this wouldn't be an issue. It's in their own hands to fix.

If you believe this actually happened you will believe anything.

Don't mind people posting stuff but this is clearly untrue.

OMG12 · 03/03/2023 21:37

Againstmachine · 03/03/2023 21:30

If you believe this actually happened you will believe anything.

Don't mind people posting stuff but this is clearly untrue.

Actually this did happen (at least twice). But has nothing to do with trusting the police. They were criminals impersonating the police.

AdventFridgeOfShame · 03/03/2023 21:40

@Lou670 it would appear that @Novatherova is a reasonably average woman married to a reasonably average policemen and most of the time they are just fine. I used to work with the police, some are amazing, some are average and some are right prats. Sometimes the culture goes wrong and the quite normal ones get dragged in. Whistle bowers are normally slightly weird on the edge of normal weirdos (nicely put).

OMG12 · 03/03/2023 21:42

Lou670 · 03/03/2023 21:22

@AdventFridgeOfShame That is really personal towards someone's marriage. This thread is not about her marriage to a police officer.

There’s a certain contingent on here whos sole aim is to criticise the police, possibly with the aim of getting them defunded. Their interest is not protecting women - see happy to have a police force where women have to face off groups of men with no make back up etc. so having a go at someone’s marriage is certainly not offlimit to them.

I had one of these lovely!( we care so much about women) Marxist idiots telling me I should act as a Guinea pig yo test out whether the police officer would rape someone earlier.

AdventFridgeOfShame · 03/03/2023 21:46

Yet again @OMG12 you mention defunding. I want the police to be properly funded. Had the police funding not been cut, we may have avoided this situation.

MiniFig · 03/03/2023 21:47

Do those talking about "defunding" the police actually know what that means?

Because a lot of you are using that word and i don't think it means what you think it means.

In fact there are several posters who have said that the police need more, proper funding.
but they need to clear out the dangerous ones, and show that they are doing that.

SayyestotheDog · 03/03/2023 21:56

OMG12 · 03/03/2023 21:37

Actually this did happen (at least twice). But has nothing to do with trusting the police. They were criminals impersonating the police.

Actually this did happen (at least twice). But has nothing to do with trusting the police. They were criminals impersonating the police.

Isn’t this the point? I think the threat of not knowing who you’re dealing with is never more heightened than now. Scammers, identity fraud, catfishing - we live in a world where more than ever we are having to constantly check & be on guard for things not being as they may seem - in real life & online. Impersonating authority figures to commit criminal acts is another aspect of it. How do you know who is flagging you down is genuinely who they purport to be? Or one of the bad apples??

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 03/03/2023 21:58

sealon82 · 03/03/2023 21:09

All the posters that don't agree with not getting out the car.. What do you think needs to happen to help fix trust between women and the police?
Or are you of the opinion that no matter what we've seen on the news ect we should live in a society that doesn't answer back and just obeys regardless of fear?

For me it's not a question of not answering back and obeying out of fear. I think individual women can do whatever they choose, provided they are aware that the police have good reasons for asking you to comply with specific instructions, and refusing to cooperate is far, far more likely to have negative consequences for you than cooperating. The law doesn't stop being the law, and nor are you exempt from it just because there have been a few high profile instances of police officers abusing their position. It's this indignant "I don't care, I am above the law and I will not comply" attitude that is risible. You are not, and you are going to receive an extremely rude awakening one day if that is your consistent attitude whenever you encounter police. If you are fortunate like OP, the police will understand and exercise a degree of discretion. If you are less fortunate, you will find yourself arrested and charged, needlessly, and entirely because of your own sanctimony. It only takes one tired, worn out officer who has been having a difficult day to think "yup, screw this, not putting up with this nonsense".

As I've said earlier in the thread, I'm no stranger to confrontations with the police, but personally I do not share the mistrust that many women in this thread are voicing, as understandable as it is. I view risk in a very pragmatic way, and I don't perceive individual police officers as a potential risk to me because a few might have behaved inappropriately, because for every single example of that, there are an order of magnitude more examples of exemplary behaviour that go unreported, so the reality is that the personal risk to me is so vanishingly small that I can't give it any headspace. It's a bit like refusing to fly in the immediate aftermath of an airliner falling out of the sky, when rationality tells you that is the exception and hundreds of thousands of flights are completely perfectly safely for every instance of one going wrong. There are people who are irrationally scared of flying of course, but these are not the people I'm describing. It's about ability to rationalise risk and put things in perspective.

As for asking "what can the police do to restore trust?", perhaps part of that would include the police explaining exactly why they might ask someone to comply in a specific way, explaining why it isn't realistic for you to remain in your car to perform a breathalyser test (some regional forces might do this from time to time, but its far from best practice and I suspect it only happens in cases where the officers involved are pretty much certain you aren't under the influence in any case), and why it isn't realistic to 'offer' to drive yourself somewhere.

If they could do that, perhaps people would regain some perspective and realise that an attitude of non-compliance is not going to get you very far when the police have far more options than you do, and they also have the law on their side. You are not going to redress a power imbalance by trying to chuck around weight you don't possess in the first place, and individual officers will not, and do not take kindly to members of the public trying it on when they are just trying to go about their job.

FOJN · 03/03/2023 22:00

There’s a certain contingent on here whos sole aim is to criticise the police, possibly with the aim of getting them defunded.

Defunding the police is a very stupid idea. I would like to see them properly funded and trained and for them to have a zero tolerance approach to anyone dodgy in their ranks. Nicknaming a colleague "the rapist" seems enabling rather than zero tolerance. I can't understand why the decent officers accept their job being made harder by the criminals in uniform.

VladmirsPoutine · 03/03/2023 22:06

sealon82 · 03/03/2023 21:09

All the posters that don't agree with not getting out the car.. What do you think needs to happen to help fix trust between women and the police?
Or are you of the opinion that no matter what we've seen on the news ect we should live in a society that doesn't answer back and just obeys regardless of fear?

It's currently underway. Shocking, but the tide might just turn.

Duckswaddle · 03/03/2023 22:07

Yeah I wouldn’t have done it either, the police have completely lost the trust of lone women through their own actions.

Justforthissnippet · 04/03/2023 00:28

explaining why it isn't realistic for you to remain in your car to perform a breathalyser test (some regional forces might do this from time to time, but its far from best practice and I suspect it only happens in cases where the officers involved are pretty much certain you aren't under the influence in any case)

What are you basing the statement that doing it in cars isn’t best practice on?

Also, if officers need reasonable reason to suspect drinking to administer a breath test, having spoken to the OP one could argue that they no longer had that anyway.

Yes, the risk is higher in this scenario that she would have been arrested for not agreeing to get out the car, than attacked if she did. But I do think this is less obvious in legal terms than some people are suggesting. In these cases, I think it’s problematic to say that people should comply because it’s easier as a general principle. Because often, it is challenge that highlights bad practice by the police, or where things can be improved.

Threee · 04/03/2023 05:36

They could have radioed and arranged for a female officer to undertake checks. I expect individual police officers will need to work hard to regain most women's trust now. This is a natural consequence

speakingofart · 04/03/2023 06:11

You absolutely weren't being unreasonable - I would have got the non emergency number on the phone and sent a text to a friend with my location as well (though tricky at 2am). Highly highly dangerous situation in which you could easily have been raped and murdered so you absolutely were right not to trust as far as you could throw them. Fundamentally, if they want us to act otherwise, they need to stop committing these awful acts themselves.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 04/03/2023 06:51

Justforthissnippet · 04/03/2023 00:28

explaining why it isn't realistic for you to remain in your car to perform a breathalyser test (some regional forces might do this from time to time, but its far from best practice and I suspect it only happens in cases where the officers involved are pretty much certain you aren't under the influence in any case)

What are you basing the statement that doing it in cars isn’t best practice on?

Also, if officers need reasonable reason to suspect drinking to administer a breath test, having spoken to the OP one could argue that they no longer had that anyway.

Yes, the risk is higher in this scenario that she would have been arrested for not agreeing to get out the car, than attacked if she did. But I do think this is less obvious in legal terms than some people are suggesting. In these cases, I think it’s problematic to say that people should comply because it’s easier as a general principle. Because often, it is challenge that highlights bad practice by the police, or where things can be improved.

That's a very muddled response, and a very naive one.

Most people whom the police have to apprehend are not naice MNetters who have unexpectedly had to swerve round a pot-hole. No police force can operate if the people whom they are lawfully stopping or arresting can decide whether or not to comply.

We had to call the police to our A&E dept this week, to detain someone who was waving a machete. I'm not that keen for a machete-waver to be allowed to decide not to comply, so that he can "highlight bad practice or where things can be improved".

The same is true of drivers, yes even naice middle-class professional women. They drive drunk too. And, no, it is not possible for the police to tell reliably who is intoxicated by talking to them. I want drunk drivers off the roads.

I totally get why women are fearful - I am myself. But the answer cannot be that lone women (or any other group who justifiably fear the police - e.g. young black men) can decide not to comply with lawful police instructions.