To think DS shouldn’t have fought back?

[Namechange12908]

DS is in year 2. Had a call from the headteacher today to say him and friend got into a fight with two other boys. Apparently some two way teasing that escalated (“im better than you at this game, no you’re not” sort of argument). The other boys hit first, but DS and friend retaliated, punching and kicking and turned into a proper fight between the four of them. All boys are being punished, school are saying DS shouldn’t have retaliated. I agree with this.

DH disagrees, and says he didn’t start the physical fight, but given the other boys hit first he was fine to fight back.

We need to talk to him about this and DH and I are not on same page. AIBU am to say he must not hit or punch back if he can safely walk away and tell a teacher? Especially at age 7 in a school playground?

Self defence I get so if this happened I 100% agree with your dh

Not they hit me so a bit later I hit them

Your DH is right. As much as morally i agree with you, in the real world..

Kids who don't fight back become the punchbag.

This.

I've seen it time and time and time again.

There's very little benefit to telling children to walk away, tell a teacher, etc - it just marks them out for actual bullying to develop. I've seen horrific effects of that mode of thinking (your thinking) over years, to the point where one of my family members married a guy who can't drive past his old school without shaking - he takes a long way around to work to avoid that place. His parents telling him to ignore the bullies, ineffective teachers/bullying policy, moving schools - none of it helped. The only thing bullies really understand is being hit back, hard. (in most cases - clearly if there's a problem family with police involvement then escalting it is another matter.)

I always tell mine: you never hit people first. But you have a right to defend yourself. And don't go too far, and try not to get caught hitting back.

But they'll never get a row from me for hitting back.

One of the options you suggested for adults is "can they or anyone else around help de-escalate the situation".

Why can that not be an option for a child on a playground where there are adults?

If you're teaching your child to retaliate, does this extend to siblings lest they look like a 'soft target'? Their friends? If no, then how do you teach your child who they can and can't retaliate towards?

@fridaytwattery I think they naturally work it out themselves tbh.

Asking a teacher to deescalate the situation isn't an option at this age IMO. The teacher has other kids to deal with and will do a nicey nice approach to the aggressor that isn't up to scratch.

Yes my kids scrap with each other on occasion too. It's normal for kids to fight to a degree, I certainly fought with my sister on occasion.

I think the issue with the “tell a teacher” approach is that schools are generally utterly useless. The best most kids get is their presence stopping any physical violence at that moment in time. There is almost never sufficient action to prevent the aggressor from thinking about doing it again or even escalating as “payback” or to prevent it happening.

Frequently teachers will be negative towards the victim, from a mild “Stop complaining” to treating both children as equally responsible.

To be fair, teachers are often in an impossible situation where they are being told two different things by the two sides and there is no access to a verifiable version of events. And they probably have far too many of these occurrences which will seem pretty petty to them. Nevertheless, kids who get told to just tell a teacher tend to feel betrayed by the advice.

This!

We are talking about young children. Young children are physical in their play and when you ask what they are doing that requires grabbing and pushing etc they will tell you how they are playing dragons etc. But by the rules of a lot of you, if one of the children hurts the other the child has justification to knock the sh*t out of them and then be rewarded when they get home.

We are not talking about teenagers or adults but children who still play robbers, dinosaurs etc.
When your child gets hurt because the other child retaliated and we then learn it was because the grab in the game was too rough - that will be okay. Your child will never play with that child again and others will applaud the child who did it.

We are talking about young children. Young children are physical in their play and when you ask what they are doing that requires grabbing and pushing etc they will tell you how they are playing dragons etc. But by the rules of a lot of you, if one of the children hurts the other the child has justification to knock the out of them and then be rewarded when they get home.

We are not talking about teenagers or adults but children who still play robbers, dinosaurs etc

When your child gets hurt because the other child retaliated and we then learn it was because the grab in the game was too rough - that will be okay. Your child will never play with that child again and others will applaud the child who did it

I think you can teach a child to stand up to bully by fighting back without teaching them violence is the first option.

My 4 year old was being targeted in school by another pupil. They told me, they explained they had told the teachers but it was still happening. So they did the right thing- what lesson does it teach them, that when authority fails you just have to put up with it🤷‍♀️.
No, so I went to talk to the teachers, it was very much played down as a kids are kids and they hurt each-other etc etc. I explained that this child was targeting mine and mine was doing the right thing but it was still happening, again she replied it was just kids being kids. I asked that they keep an extra eye for a week for me just to see.

After 3 days they acknowledged my child was in fact right and was being* targeted so the other child was being in "time out" when they saw them do it. It continued, i then told our child to just kick them back, hard. They reluctantly did that and the child didn't bother my child again.

Schools are so stretched now the staff don't see everything and sometimes are too busy to deal with every instance and bullies are sneaky.
It's good children know when it's acceptable to fight back.

My DS, around year 8 in high school kept being ‘bothered’ by a couple of boys in his class. He was ‘posh’ and ‘a hippy’. He was physically shoved a few times. Teachers saw, told the boys to behave but never took it seriously or did anything else. When one decided to hit DS because he wanted to sit where DS was sitting and DS wouldn’t move, he finally hit back. DS was tall and strong, so it was a good wallop.
When school called and told me what happened they seemed to expect me to be appalled that DS had hit back. What they got from me instead was “Good for him!”
DS was never bothered again.

Exactly what happened to my son. Trouble all through primary with the same child who was given a yellow card first time he was caught....really ....same punishment as others get for wrapping a tune on the table...red card the second so not allowed break...yellow card the third etc. One hit in secondary never bothered him again. Schools do not deal with bullying so the victim has no choice...be bullied leave school and watch social media follow you or hit back. It's sad but the current system does not work as many suicides show.

Yes indeed, @jannier . Those who think hitting back is wrong or creating a violent society (I'd argue the opposite, actually) are not suggesting any good solutions to being the target of an agressor. A PP above summed up the main problem nicely:

I think the issue with the “tell a teacher” approach is that schools are generally utterly useless.

I’ve always told my daughter that we do not start fights, but we finish them so nobody starts them again. She has been picked on before by a boy who she was kicked by so she pushed him over and he hurt his hand. The teacher told her off but when I broached why it happened she thought it was funny to say “Ohh he just fancies her” I asked if it’s ok to teach girls that abuse = affection and she just ignored the question and said it was sorted now.
I told DD I was proud of her for standing up for herself but to remember we only fight back, we never start the fights. She’s honestly the most thoughtful, inclusive person, as are most kids at her school.

I was bullied as a child by a boy for being short, he once hit me over the head with a rounders bat in the playground after months of taunting and threatening me. I snapped and punched the twat in the nose and he never bothered me again, neither did anybody else.

I say good for your DS, nobody else will stand your ground for you, you have to do it yourself.

Yabu. If someone attacked me I'm fighting back until they stop.

I say that now. I didn't fight back in school when I'd get attacked by a horrible girl and you know what, she never stopped. I ended up leaving the school. If I hit her back it would have been different I bet.

This doesn't apply to the majority of the replies to this thread, but for all the replies from people saying hitting back is wrong, and it's best to tell a teacher, walk away silently, try and reason with the bullies who are hitting etc: Shame on you. You're doing a disservice to your child and setting them up for a hard time in school, and life.

Nope. I said that hitting back is wrong, and my dd has got through her school years without any difficulties, thank you. I'm pretty sure that she will get through life without hitting people as well.

Self defence is great if properly learned and applied, and I would gladly encourage my dd to learn those skills, but just hitting back without any skill or training? Frankly, a petite person like my dd would just put herself at even greater risk. It would be stupid!

Instead, she has learned how to express herself without getting into silly arguments, how to de-escalate difficult situations and how to call help when it's needed. Bullies knew not to mess with her because she could shut them down easily with her words. These strategies have served her perfectly well to date, as they have served me and many other people I know.

Sorry, but I think the people who encourage their kids to fight are idiots. That's why we have so many kids with knives now. Can't blame the kids...it's the logical conclusion of the argument that you need to be ready to fight back. And all the data proves that, the kids who arm themselves not to start a fight but to defend themselves just in case someone else attacks them, are much more likely to be victims than the ones who don't. Shame on me? I don't think so.

Shame on me? I don't think so.

That's fine, it's your opinion. It's my opinion that I feel sorry for the child victims of bullying who will be given the message perpetuated by people like yourself and find themselves to be at the rough end of bullying throughout their school years and being picked on throughout life. I've seen it first hand, many, many times.

Of course, circumstantial differences will occur in any event, but IMO as a whole, it doesn't matter how big or small you are: You fight back and hit back twice as hard and demonstrate that you are not one to mess with without a consequence. Even at a loss, fighting back can be enough to instil in the mind of a bully-type that further instances would probably not be worth it.

Well, we'll have to agree to differ, I guess.

You feel sorry for the kids that receive my message because you think it makes them more of a target. I feel sorry for the kids that receive your message because I think it puts them at greater risk of getting hurt. Each of us will no doubt be influenced by our own experiences in this.

Sorry, but I think the people who encourage their kids to fight are idiots. That's why we have so many kids with knives now

No one on here is advocating encouraging children to fight. Rather, they are saying that, if other avenues aren't open, it's better not to be an easy and uncomplaining target, because if you are, then guess what? The bullying will continue.
Standing up to a bully does not mean carrying a knife, how ridiculous! And it's also not necessarily violent. Bullies are generally insecure cowards, so prefer a soft target who won't retaliate.

I get that many on here feel that schools don't often deal well with it (my own child was bullied) but my eyes were opened when I had a career change and started working in a primary school.

I sort out many issues on a regular basis. I listen to each side, I listen to witnesses incl other staff. I review CCTV when necessary.

Earlier this week I listened to an upset and frustrated parent say their child was being bullied. Her child had retaliated. The 'bully' was a child with suspected SEN who was copying what they thought was banter that the other child had been using.

Another issue this week was one child telling me that another kid had called them names and that this has been happening for a while, they were angry and said they would hit them next time. The other kid admitted calling the child names but said the first child had been doing it to someone else so he joined in. This was confirmed by a member of staff. The first child omitted to tell me this.

As a parent that used to have a totally different job, I saw things quite black and white. As someone who works in a school I've learnt that things rarely are. I've had two children outright lie to my face this week and I've had kids just not understand why what they did was wrong because their perception was so different. We have to unpick it and looking at why a child might do something helps us understand what motivated that child so we can put steps in place to prevent it happening again. The education we provide is no longer just academic; we need to educate about handling emotions too. Would you believe some kids have told me they don't know how they feel, they can't identify it, and can quickly go from 0-60 with anger because of that.

Many children in school can have complex needs - either emotional or educational and in other cases trauma in their background. I cannot in anyway allow kids to solve things with violence, particularly when I know the background. These are young children after all. So no, I don't feel any shame at all.

Another one that involved physical violence was during a game of "it" when one child said he'd been shoved hard (they had been running and it was a mistimed "it". He shoved back harder. Then others joined in with verbal taunting, took sides and it escalated within seconds.
@Keyansier

I've lost count of how many "he kicked the ball in my face" I've dealt with where actually it was not intentional, just their football skills aren't that great at 8 years old!

YABU, and if you look at the world around us now, children can do without parents punishing the fight out of them.

The school is correctly teaching them how the authorities will respond to violence. Leave it at that, or if you do anything maybe buy DS a small treat.

This.

As much as people like to pretend otherwise there is still pack mentality to groups of people, especially children. He could have effectively saved himself years of torment.

If someone lays hands on you once with no consequences, they will do it again until you stop them.

I've always thought you should fight back until til my brother ended up with a conviction and suspended sentence for doing so in self defence and using an object which accidentally broke and caused an injury. It's ruined his life.

Yeah so I've learnt you can't even rely on self defence now. If it's judged excessive it's ABH or GBH even if an injury is an accident.