To consider not attending my sisters vow renewal or her new house? (Lgbt travel)

[Sandyshoes2]

Odd question really.

I'm part of a lesbian couple and have a toddler

My sister previously lived in Dubai for a few years, but moved home for a few years while my neice was undergoing health treatment. Health treatment is now done and they are moving to another country in that region

While she was there initially I was single, and visited her a few times, had some lovely holidays.

Her wedding was a fairly rush job prior to moving to dubai in order to be able live with her husband as a married couple there, so understandably now neice is better she would like the celebration that she didn't have before.

However she has chosen a fairly famous non lgbt friendly country to do it in. I completely understand that it's probably something that didn't cross her mind.

When she announced that was likely the plan, I said that I'd have to think about if we would attend and explained that I wasn't sure about going to that country. As part of that conversation it then became apparent that we weren't considering visiting when they move to the new country.

Her view is that I previously visited in dubai, and that both countries are much more worried about locals rather than applying the rules to "Westerners" which is probably true.

My view is things are different now because I'd be travelling as part of a queer family, there is a clear indication that I'm gay because I'm legally married to a woman, we are both on Dds birth certificate. Before it felt more like as long as I didnt engage in a homosexual act then nothing was likely to happen. I'm sort of not really a fan of spending thousands on travel to not sleep in the same bed as my wife. Im concerned that should an issue occur that my wife wouldn't be treated as my wife or the mother of DD. Dp also looks butch which worries me for her

I think she's probably right that they don't give a shit what happens in resorts, but part of me feels like I'm too old to be acting like we aren't a family, and that it's not worth the risk. I do know queer couples that have travelled throughout similar countries and been left alone as long as they don't hold hands

I'm sad to miss out on the renewal and recognise its a wedge between me and my sister

It just feels like a lose lose situations

www.thepinknews.com/2016/06/16/british-gay-couple-detained-in-dubai-airport-while-staff-laughed-about-their-sexuality/

Same

What @PuttingDownRoots said. I don't travel countries where women are treated as second-class citizens as a matter of principle.

My company wanted me to re-locate to Dubai for a while, even offered to give DW a role there too.
I had to very slowly and patiently explain why it wasn’t going to happen no matter how lovely my new colleagues there might be. Some people just don’t get it - blinded by money usually

It would be a hard no from me, OP. There's no way you should put yourself and your family at risk.

Your sister is being completely unreasonable.

Thanks all
To clarify I don't blame my sister at all. It's simply one of those things I don't think most people even think about until its relevant to them.

At a wedding show, the sandals lady was trying to convince us to go to get married Jamaica etc where marriage is not only not possible but homosexuality punished imprisonment
Collegues, and travel agents are always recommending us to go to Egypt or Morocco. I think it just doesn't occur to most people

I agree with some of you there is sometimes an ethical issue of supporting countries with poor human rights records.

Our dream honeymoon was the Maldives where there is/was strong anti lgbt legislation. Theres lots of history of it being okay for queer travellers but it didn't feel right to go if just outside the gates the same thing by a local was treated very different.

The current fco advice for the wedding says that local feeling is "Conservative" but the legislation is " rarely enforced", and I think the likely hood is in a sandals type resort the risk is low, but it feels like the risk is never none.

Pay who exactly?

I wouldn't visit a country where your lifestyle is illegal. Why on earth would you throw your hard-earned money into their economy.

I am good friends with a couple who were in EXACTLY the same position as you. They did not attend the ceremony. The concern was the “what if” scenario.

100% people just don’t know what it’s like to have to think about these things. Moreover, as you can see on this thread, they think the whole world should be like them and become totally aggressive and confrontational about it. There’s very little nuance to the thought, very little understanding of the situation on the ground etc etc. I digress. In your shoes, I wouldn’t go because I wouldn’t want to take the risk of something going wrong and my same-sex marriage causing problems I don’t want to deal with.

I hope your sister isn’t making this a “choose between me and your own safety” situation. That’s not what this is about, she can have both. Just not where she has chosen to live. I’d be thinking a lot less of her if she was giving me grief over this.

I wouldn’t be going in your shoes.

I wouldn’t be going as a woman at all, and I also wouldn’t be going as I don’t want to visit a country that doesn’t welcome gay people openly - amongst others.

My teenage Dd is gay and I wouldn’t advise her to go when she’s older - she also says to me “oh I couldn’t got to xyz country” which makes me think.

Another 'hell no' from me. There is a world of difference from travelling as a single woman, or even a same-sex couple, and doing it as a toddler. You cannot prevent a toddler from yelling 'mummy and mama!' or even, when they're not yet speaking, from making it totally obvious you are a couple.

No one ever visits a repressive regime thinking they'll be the ones who end up in a nightmare scenario where the country enforces the law of the land. But obviously, it does happen.

Haven’t read the full thread but based on the op. So so hard. I don’t think you’re being unreasonable to be worried. I think I’d probably go alone or just with DD if I felt unsafe as a family, which sucks but also I wouldn’t want to miss an important life milestone for my DSis.

We had something like this when my DH sis got married and the place wasn’t safe for the kids for various reasons and I encouraged him to go alone. I didn’t love being left behind but I absolutely wouldn’t have wanted him to not get to his sisters big celebration.

It's not as if a vow renewal is that important, is it? It mostly sounds like an excuse for a hell of a party. If your sister is that desperate for you to be there, she should come back to the UK, which will probably be way easier for most of the guests.

This.
I am straight too and would not go to a country like this.

Two of my brothers are gay. They keep a frequently updated list of countries where they're unwelcome legislatively. And it's a fair chunk of the world; most of West Asia, almost all of Africa, much of eastern Europe, Russia, the Caribbean islands, most places in the Indian Ocean, large parts of East and South Asia, central America. Most recently, Italy (because Meloni has made lots of very homophobic noises and she's PM now).

And that's before you even get started on rural parts of supposedly OK countries, like the US, Spain, the UK, Ireland, France or Mexico, where they're more likely to encounter anything from funny looks to outright hostility.

It's an aspect of travelling that most straight people don't have to consider, and often underestimate even if they do.

You do right, OP. And personally I would ascribe at least a little bit of accountability to your sister on this. Not blame, exactly, but an element of awareness would have been nice.

It blows my mind that your sister has even asked you to consider this. She wants you to risk tearing your family apart, losing your child, a lengthy prison sentence in a foreign country....for the sake of a poxy party? Is she usually a screaming narcissist?

Shame on her for choosing to support a regime that considers her sister an abomination for existing. I wouldn't go to her bloody party even if she relocated it to the UK.

This is it. It's a safety issue. If something goes wrong, it will go very wrong. Your child and partner come first.

I understand your feelings but it’s important to your sister so could you not attend on your own?

I think your sister is being incredibly thoughtless. My daughter is getting married this year, and although brought up as a member of a Church congregation, she has said she and her fiancé don't want to get married somewhere where his sister with a female partner could not , and I support that 💯. Taking care of family and making them feel safe and valued is what is important to protect your marriage.

The Forbes link is useful, thank you.

This paragraph leaps out, if anyone is reading this thread judging how backward (other) countries are —

One shocking statistic: “A whopping 47 of the 70 countries that have illegal same-sex relationships were part of the British Empire. That is 67%!” says Fergusson. “This isn’t a coincidence. In almost all cases, the laws outlawing consensual gay sex were put into place under British rule and were left in place following independence.

I completely agree. We had an opportunity a few years ago to move to one of these well known "anti-LGBTQ countries" and even though we'd have financially benefited, had a lovely lifestyle, accessed good schools etc, we turned it down without a second's thought as I don't want to live anywhere members of my family and close friends can't visit because of their sexuality.
I think it's all very well and good saying "oh they won't check up on who you're sharing a bed with" etc, but the reality is that if it was me, I couldn't relax at all, I would spend my flight there in a panic that we were going to get turned back, and I'd constantly be worrying we were going to get in trouble with the "law"!!! For me, the fact they "aren't bothered about westerners" doesn't help or make it alright as a place to visit either.

I used to live in such a country and speak the language (I wasn't there on a contract). I 100% wouldn't go with your DP and DD. Not a chance in hell. Your "D"Sis is a (sorry) stupid, naïve, typical expat. I've met many many people like her. She's living in the country but very likely in some expat bubble/gated community. The reality of what it would mean to you simply isn't on her radar because she's in such a privileged bubble over there.

It would be possible for you to go alone and there'd be no risk in that. However, I'm not sure given her attitude to the safety of your family that she deserves you making the effort and spending what it would require (flights are much more expensive now than they used to be - I guess she won't be aware of that either as she's unlikely to be paying for her own).

YANBU. I wouldn't go either if I was in your shoes.

I'm a bit amazed at the 6% who have voted YABU. I'm really sorry that you are in this horrible position, OP.

Oh and they definitely are aware of where you're sleeping in hotels.