Is this weird - work related - is it cultural?

[cofingalthetime]

So just to start - I'm Irish.
So I work in a office in a small team. Colleagues has been off for 3 weeks. The first week she was off I asked the team leader was she ok, and she said she it was "personal". So of course I respect people's privacy and didn't want to pry and so I didn't ask anything or mention it again. I was in the office with TL and one other girl yesterday. And I just happened to say to the other girl "I hope X is ok, she has been off for a while" and the girl said did I not know, but X's brother had been murdered! I was so shocked, and upset that I didn't know. I asked her had flowers or a card not been sent -and she said no - that not even our Head knew what happened, that the TL hadn't told anyone, and this girl had heard it from a completely different friend of X's. (X is friends with people outside our dept, she's worked there for years).

I said we should organise at least a card from our team, to let her know we were thinking of her. That we should maybe send flowers... that I'd be happy to chip in if the company didn't want to pay (notoriously stingy).

Team leader came back into the office and we both said it to her and she said 'no no' we are not to organise anything like that. Why not I said? And she just said kept saying 'no no'.

THEN, Team leader said she had been in touch with X and had told her she needs to come back to the office as it's been 3 weeks - X had apparently been doing working from home, and some compassionate leave, and some annual leave. X asked to work from home for the time being (she lives a long way - we are doing 3 days in, 2 days wfh) but team leader said no, she has to come back properly. She even said to X that she will arrange for her to work in this horrible little office we have - that has no windows - and she can work in there on her own if she doesnt want to sit in the office with us???? I was gobsmacked. She said she has told X she needs to get signed off by a doctor or come back asap. Fair enough I know - even though managers are allowed to "use discretion" when it comes to working from home and personal circumstances - this manager likes to follow the rules to the letter. More than that though - why can't we send a card? Is that an "English" thing?? I know in Ireland there's no way nothing would have been done by now. I feel so sorry for X that she has had nothing from her work colleagues at all. I mean, am I wrong or?? Feel so bad. Have bought a card and will send it myself if team leader won't let us send a group one.

Stubborn as a mule obviously...

Seems it is all about you, your gossip and your feelings.

For what it is worth, the whole Irish curtain twitching, gossip etc is I believe (as well as finding work outside Ireland) one of the reasons my stepdad left Ireland for England, as he couldn't stand the level of nosiness in Ireland (probably happens in a lot of country villages/locations). Colm Toibin refers to it in many of his novels about Ireland too.

All seems to be blanketed as 'caring' when in some cases as others have referred to here, it is very much not..

If someone gets married it's generally accepted for the office to send a gift/card - arranged by their team - in my office.

I will say this, since lots of offices have restarted fully back in the office since March this year (including my global organisation) since Covid, there have been a few queries over what to do with cards/collections as our organisation only requires us to be in the office 2 days a week. We've had online leaving cards/collection cards etc.

So, this may also be one reason your boss/colleague hasn't had a card/flowers.

Really interesting to google and read OP's other posts:

OP works as a Data Protection Officer but she is unhappy in her role and has been trying to leave... and is griping about failing an internal test for another role in her company. She also seems to take it upon herself to ask on MN for help for her colleagues...

I'm always sympathetic with people who wish to leave their roles, but if OP is unhappy in her role/with the organisation already, then I find, they will generally find something, anything to cling onto and complain about... however petty!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4570431-to-ask-here-if-theres-anyone-in-hr-who-can-help-re-an-occupational-review

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4565740-to-have-failed-another-interview

You know this is weird and stalkery, right? Did you think it was clever?

I am not troll hunting!

I was just a bit pissed off by the OP stating she hated the English basically and thought we were cold regarding everything basically!

I didn't think it was clever and yes slightly stalkery but OP has pissed a few people including me off...

When my mother died, I asked for no-one at work to be told, and I spoke to a couple of colleagues I was close to. When my father died, during lockdown and everyone working from home, my colleagues (small office) were told, and I received some very thoughtful emails. In these non-lockdown times, we will send a condolence card signed by everyone, unless the person has asked for us not to know. So lead very much by the bereaved person, as it should be. Particularly in the case of such a traumatic death, like your colleague experienced, OP.

I think it's a cultural thing & a crap manager.

I'm Irish but In Scotland. My manager checks when we're phoning in with something if we're ok for the team to know.

We had a similar issue a few years ago where a colleagues relative was murdered. It was all over the news though but my work sent flowers & a card

The whole funeral thing here still confuses me. I do go to funerals of people I don't know though, if it's a parent of a friend. I'm going to support my friend

You sound like an absolute drama Queen
what have your work colleagues got to do with your grandparent dying, it’s sad but hardly tragedy of the century and happens to us all in the end

@arayes 3/4 of my grandparents are from Northern Ireland. The other is from Scotland. One parent born in Scotland one in Ireland but I was raised in England. Lots of things are tragic in this world, like OP’s colleagues family member being murdered. 90-odd yr old grandparents dying in their sleep does not need colleagues wringing their hands for you end weeks off work. If you’ve experienced real tragedy you’d understand

Find that comment pretty insulting tbh

Yes, but different organisations do things different ways.

One of my work colleagues, his son was stabbed (luckily not fatally) - no one knew bar his direct reports and boss and me, because I'm the boss' PA.

In our organisation (global) we have had to rethink various things we used to do in the past like collecting for leaving cards and how to do them, only this morning I discovered that my team out of 3 in our division is the last one still doing physical cards. Collections are usually left up to HQ, not from colleagues. To be honest we are so big I think old style collections can get out of hand and you end up contributing a lot even though there's not a huge turnover of staff.

All our staff returned to the office 2 days a week in March 2022, WFH the other 3 days. Apart from Directors who generally work a 4/5 day week in the office. We are still finding our feet re mixing with actual physical people in the office and interactions. This was commented on at a business admin function this summer, how tricky we were all finding things.

The above doesn't make us heartless but we have had to rethink a lot of what we do, especially after the Covid 19 pandemic. We also have to factor in GDPR and Data Protection.

I work in an office 70% men and 30% women approximately, the men are really scared of HR cases being brought against them so there's no compliments, you look nice etc!

But yeah, OP thinks we're heartless because we don't do things the Irish way re funerals and death and she's been brought up in Ireland so naturally is used to their way.

It doesn't really matter that her mother is English because culturally OP is Irish, or so it seems and she's trying to bring her ways over to England.

If the LM is being insensitive etc then of course that's not good but OP seems to think this matter (a sensitive murder case) is good gossip/talking group with her and her colleagues. I'd be mortified if people were speaking about me in this way had my own brother/sister been murdered and would want to be left in peace! I really think that OP doesn't know her colleague as well as she thinks she does...

OP here I think is blurring the lines between the friendship of her work colleague and sees them more as friends whereas her colleague may see things differently. I get this, it happens...

@GonnaGetGoingReturns absolutely agree I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Some people see colleagues as friends but the colleagues might not see it that way. It’s lovely to get on with people at work but where I work I only see two people outside of work, and even then not often, maybe an invite to a bbq over summer and a coffee over Christmas where we might give each other’s kids a small gift. It’s because I’ve made friends at workplaces before then I’ve left or the others have left and I’ve realised that really we were just friends because we were in the same situation. It’s too hard to keep up with everyone and everything making best friends at work left right and center! And also, a lot of talk of flowers on this thread - many people hate flowers. And cards tbh. My partners dad died when he was very young, his mum kept all the sympathy cards and my DP often says he hates seeing them, they’re just meaningless pieces of paper to him and almost demean the loss of his father. But to his mum they were everything- she also loves sending cards for every occasion and can’t understand why the grandkids don’t gush over her carefully chosen birthday and Xmas cards , i think it’s cultural and generational thing

@Blueeyedgirl21 - glad you understand!

I think you have to be very careful personally with work friendships as there can be blurred lines... I've had or have heard of cases where a work friendship has gone sour and then you're pushed under the bus by your colleague!

Which is why I make a rule to be work friendly with people from work and not friendly friendly!

The exception to this rule could be e.g. at the Barbour factory (great documentary on this factory recently!) where you have family members working there and it is more family/work/friends than a traditional office. I worked for a factory like this years ago, and it was far more family orientated. But even then, use caution.

Like I said before, all English people aren't cold and hard hearted when it comes to funerals - see Queen Elizabeth II funeral coverage and the amount of people who turned out for that and laid flowers! But we keep it in perspective and yes, we don't go in for the full-on wailing/go to every funeral of someone we know, but as I said before, I do appreciate the Irish way of commiserating/saying mass/sending mass cards when someone dies, like my Irish step-grandmother did when my grandparents (unrelated to her) and my dad (died suddenly when I was 22/23), that really touched us all as she didn't know any of them, but had heard of them.

No, you've misunderstood the point entirely.

As a half Irish/half English person, it absolutely is cultural. English people are so weird about death, they don't know how weird they are.

It's really interesting to hear people hypothesising about whether OP has misinterpreted the friendship/colleague relationship. But this completely misses the point that for Irish people the level of friendship is completely irrelevant. If somebody you know is bereaved then that is acknowledged - by card/flowers/spoken condolences/coming to the funeral. Whatever. It would be unthinkable to simply ignore it.

BTW to the PP - it isn't 'faux concern', it is literal, real life, actual concern ffs. Have a dig around and see if you can locate your empathy.

I get you OP. It can be really jarring to experience the English coldness to death if you weren't brought up that way.

@Fattoushi

I think there are multiple points in the OP.

First - suggestion English people have a different culture towards bereavement i.e. somehow 'lesser' than the way Irish people respond to bereavement.
Second - the nature of the bereavement is (fortunately) mostly unchartered territory for most of us.
Third - allegations the TL was inappropriate in their response to requests for information regarding someone's personal circumstances (by refusing to divulge personal information) yet somehow the same TL was happy to breach all manner of confidentiality regarding bereaved person's leave arrangements / return to work.
Fourth - the OP having been excluded from those the bereaved person advised personally, but insisting they are friends.
Fifth - the OP being the central social-secretary willing, and happy, to ignore TL advice on how to proceed.

It's a virtual smorgasbord of points, really ..... 😛

Exactly!

Got it in five points!

It's a bit frustrating that people make so many assumptions and blanket statements based on culture and seem to think that most or a lot of English are as backwards and racist as in the days of the Raj, when that's far from the truth!

I'm a European - British born but with direct German/Luxembourg/French ancestry on my mum's side and quarter Welsh from my dad's side.

My grandfather and great grandmother were actually refugees/migrants from Germany to England before WW2 broke out and because my great grandfather married a German woman (he was English/French dual national) they lost everything twice over due to the Nazis - they worked for nobility but were very wealthy. So not only did they face racism in Germany for having English French blood but also in London my Great grandmother was refused to be served in shops as she was German! I only knew of my grandad's treatment of him as a child (mostly by teachers and older people, not children who stuck up for him!) in Germany - after he died, he wrote them in his memoirs which I am typing up. He must've found it too painful to tell us this in perfect but did tell us lovely stories about growing up in Bavaria/Germany.

Phew!

Under GDPR regulations you are not supposed to know why someone is off work and the fact that your boss has said not to send a card is for that reason. The company could get into serious trouble if they break GDPR regulations regarding confidentiality. If you choose to send a card just from yourself that's a little different but your colleague may still be upset that someone has been gossiping and that is how you all found out .

@GonnaGetGoingReturns

Wow!! That's some history you have there. Are you planning on publishing the memoirs once complete?

How I see it is, basically, we're all mongrels.

I consider myself predominately Scottish, with a nod to Ireland. However, I'd imagine a DNA analysis would reveal much more than those known heritages.

Also, as a Scot, well-used to the 'beliefs' we are all tight-fisted drunkards, I can spot stereotyping of one nation's citizens when I see it! 😀

Yep - I've said this before! Lots of organisations are very hot on GDPR right now and have training attached to this!

I’m N.Irish, married to an Englishman and living in England. The difference in attitudes to death are quite large. When our neighbour’s father died (we’d never met him), I fully expected my husband to go to the funeral to ‘represent’ our family. Having lived here for longer, I now understand that the English don’t work like this. I also had disapproval from my English in-laws because I brought our children to my DH’s father’s funeral. My husband wanted them there so I ignored them. My experience is that (generally) the English are much more buttoned up than Irish people. Even getting the bus, it’s always the elderly Irish people who will stand and have a chat with you. I prefer living in a more connected society so I think we will eventually move back to N.I - not sure how my repressed Surrey husband will cope!