Is this weird - work related - is it cultural?

[cofingalthetime]

So just to start - I'm Irish.
So I work in a office in a small team. Colleagues has been off for 3 weeks. The first week she was off I asked the team leader was she ok, and she said she it was "personal". So of course I respect people's privacy and didn't want to pry and so I didn't ask anything or mention it again. I was in the office with TL and one other girl yesterday. And I just happened to say to the other girl "I hope X is ok, she has been off for a while" and the girl said did I not know, but X's brother had been murdered! I was so shocked, and upset that I didn't know. I asked her had flowers or a card not been sent -and she said no - that not even our Head knew what happened, that the TL hadn't told anyone, and this girl had heard it from a completely different friend of X's. (X is friends with people outside our dept, she's worked there for years).

I said we should organise at least a card from our team, to let her know we were thinking of her. That we should maybe send flowers... that I'd be happy to chip in if the company didn't want to pay (notoriously stingy).

Team leader came back into the office and we both said it to her and she said 'no no' we are not to organise anything like that. Why not I said? And she just said kept saying 'no no'.

THEN, Team leader said she had been in touch with X and had told her she needs to come back to the office as it's been 3 weeks - X had apparently been doing working from home, and some compassionate leave, and some annual leave. X asked to work from home for the time being (she lives a long way - we are doing 3 days in, 2 days wfh) but team leader said no, she has to come back properly. She even said to X that she will arrange for her to work in this horrible little office we have - that has no windows - and she can work in there on her own if she doesnt want to sit in the office with us???? I was gobsmacked. She said she has told X she needs to get signed off by a doctor or come back asap. Fair enough I know - even though managers are allowed to "use discretion" when it comes to working from home and personal circumstances - this manager likes to follow the rules to the letter. More than that though - why can't we send a card? Is that an "English" thing?? I know in Ireland there's no way nothing would have been done by now. I feel so sorry for X that she has had nothing from her work colleagues at all. I mean, am I wrong or?? Feel so bad. Have bought a card and will send it myself if team leader won't let us send a group one.

I get it. Although I was born here my parents are Irish and so are all the rest of my relatives. Death and bereavement are definitely treated differently in Ireland to here. Here it’s often much more private, most people wouldn’t talk to work colleagues about it or want any attention to be paid.
When anyone we know in Ireland passes away we get linked to the announcements in the paper / church, the funeral arrangements, address for cards/ flowers etc. Even people we haven’t ever met, or not seen since childhood. I always send something.
I prefer the Irish way of being much more open about death and grief.

YABVU and tbh it sounds like you were trying to subtly pry with your comment to your colleague about the other colleague having been off for a long time. People are entitled to their privacy, wherever they come from. It sounds as though you are determined to make this public. Why can't you keep a bereavement secret if you want to?

I can't comment on whether literally all Irish people would be open and public with something like this, regardless of the circumstances. But I'd assume that, like English people, they are all individuals and deal with bereavement in their own way, which should be respected.

Thanks - I honestly don't think I'm either a gossip or a nosy parker. It's been 3 fucking weeks FFS. I'm actually embarrassed for my workplace.

When is it not appropriate to express sympathy for someone who is bereaved. I don't get it.

I'm English, we had something similar in a team I was in. The employee was so understandably distraught that we did not raise for weeks as to whether she wanted us to inform the rest of the team on her behalf as to what had happened.

I think we did flowers at an appropriate point but definitely not a team card, as we were leaving her to deal with things, and didn't know what she wanted people to know (if anything).

Situations like the one described are an absolute minefield.

When anyone I managed was absent from work, for whatever reason, I would assure them of confidentiality unless they required otherwise. Many people find it easier for a manager to share bad/horrific news with colleagues rather than having to explain it to each and every individual themselves.

If the employee had asked for confidentiality, then the TL is absolutely correct in attempting to maintain that, despite a personal friend openly sharing confidential information.

Also, as a manager, I'd be concerned at a member of my team using up annual leave etc. which will have an impact for them/their own wellbeing later in the year. I'd be encouraging the staff member to visit their GP to have them consider whether a fit note would be more appropriate for them at this time.

Finally, I'd be surprised if the company had not sent their own card/flowers on behalf of all colleagues, given the nature of the absence and request for confidentiality. Again, that information would not be shared with fellow colleagues who could think what they like about the employer.

It is odd, though, that the TL maintained the confidentiality around the reason for absence but was, apparently, only to happy to discuss their demands for the absent employee to return to the workplace and the arrangements to allow that.

If a manager of mine had shared that information with colleagues, I'd be taking out a grievance for sure.

Op I think if the colleagues mum had died or something more “expected” then probably a card would be sent. I really think it’s about the fact that the brother was murdered which is so awful it’s not a “normal” bereavement. Everywhere I’ve worked in England we sent cards when someone was bereaved

This is a bit over the top and unfair.

You are right that British people find death difficult to deal with but that isn’t the issue here.

This is someone who has lost a loved one in incredibly traumatic circumstances and their wishes with respect to disclosure to colleagues take priority over your desire to do something.

My sons friend was murdered, the entire town came to a standstill for the three days of the funeral. The route to the cemetery was lined with people.

It's just different here OP. My dh is English and he found our culture around funerals really intense when we moved back here.

He's used to it now

Ah come on. Honestly? If a close work colleague is off for 3 weeks you are not allowed to enquire if they are ok?

I'm Irish and I find you way OTT. You say she's a friend yet she didn't tell you what happened. Murder is not the same as natural causes and she may not want it about the place cos shes now gone from colleague to that girl whose brother was murdered. Don't be in her face when she comes back either, sounds like you'll want every detail of what happened. Send her a text that you're thinking of her and leave it alone.

How long have you worked in England?

@cofingalthetime I’m not English either, and find the English can be quite cold (I know, generalisation). More so those from the south, northerners are more open.

have also found them to pretend to like or be ok with those who aren’t english but there’s a clear boundary put up. It may be because they want to look like they’re cool and open minded. Has happened so many times with english women in particular that I’ve unfortunately developed a suspicion and just assume they won’t like me.

Three weeks off without a doctors note is definitely generous, you can self certificate for 7 days and then you need a note in all circumstances.

As a line manager I would expect a note to arrive (it's usually all electronic now) by the end of the second week, by the end of week three HR would be asking me what was being done to manage the absence. It sounds like this line manager is fudging it with some compassionate leave, some annual leave, some sick leave which is messy.

OK, its definitely a cultural thing then.

I just hope I never suffer a bereavement here. So cold and uncaring you all are!

How on earth is respecting the bereaved person's wish for privacy 'uncaring'? It's quite the opposite. Prioritising your apparently cultural need to publicly show you care over the feelings of your colleague would actually be uncaring.

FTR I don't think the OP is being over invested, I think she's just clicked into "Irish death protocols".

It IS very different here, but I don't think it's lack of caring in the UK, just a different way.

meant this in general, not around bereavement specifically

You know there's nothing to stop you sending a card on your own don't you.

You are being very unfair. Unless you specifically asked your manager to tell people about your loss it would be grossly unprofessional of them to do so. It doesn’t mean that they don’t care, just that they understand that personal information is just that and not for them to share.

Not everyone is the same. You wanted a fuss and for everyone to know, but others would just want to be left alone. I’m experiencing a personal family situation at the minute and the only people who are aware are my boss and a direct colleague. The only reason I told them is because I’m having to take some time off and my colleague is picking up the slack. I have specifically asked that they tell no one else as I don’t want to have to talk about it. It’s enough to have to think about this every minute of every day in my personal life, when I’m at work I just want to crack on and focus on that.

Your work should be sending card and flowers. It's pretty awful they are not. I would be questioning the team leader as to why they don't think it's appropriate. It comes across as very cold and unfeeling.

You enquired and were told that it is personal yet you are still harping on.

Can you not see how wrong and intrusive this is?

This is definitely a cultural difference thing. In Ireland work colleagues are pretty much expected to go to the funeral if a close relative of a colleague dies, probably wouldn't even occur to many English people to go to the funeral of someone they have never met.

Re the card - the boss might be right. If no one is supposed to know then a card would be misplaced, and X might feel like the whole office is gossiping about her.

Re the WFH it feels like the boss is being a jobsworth. If she can work in some windowless room on her own she can obviously work from home. But I guess it’s none of your business unfortunately.

I was off work for four months and no-one from my work asked if I was OK -as far as I know. My team leader knew the reason, as did her manager and HR. No one else at work was told -obviously that would be a breach of confidentiality. I certainly didn’t get any flowers or cards from the company.

Some fairly unpleasant generalisations about the English on this thread. I’m English and I lost my Mum recently and I don’t recognise these descriptions of coldness at all and I don’t think we have this huge collective issue with death either. My experience and that of friends and family is that when there is a bereavement people are warm, caring and sensitive. Work sent flowers , people are happy to let me talk if I want to, friends and neighbours bring food and text etc. Funeral was lovely actually- loads of people came and it was really sad but also a celebration.

I just don't understand how you could possibly think that your own feelings, however strong and however culturally embedded about the importance of showing public sympathy and caring actually trump the bereaved colleague's desire for privacy. Can you not see how unreasonable that is?