Is this weird - work related - is it cultural?

[cofingalthetime]

So just to start - I'm Irish.
So I work in a office in a small team. Colleagues has been off for 3 weeks. The first week she was off I asked the team leader was she ok, and she said she it was "personal". So of course I respect people's privacy and didn't want to pry and so I didn't ask anything or mention it again. I was in the office with TL and one other girl yesterday. And I just happened to say to the other girl "I hope X is ok, she has been off for a while" and the girl said did I not know, but X's brother had been murdered! I was so shocked, and upset that I didn't know. I asked her had flowers or a card not been sent -and she said no - that not even our Head knew what happened, that the TL hadn't told anyone, and this girl had heard it from a completely different friend of X's. (X is friends with people outside our dept, she's worked there for years).

I said we should organise at least a card from our team, to let her know we were thinking of her. That we should maybe send flowers... that I'd be happy to chip in if the company didn't want to pay (notoriously stingy).

Team leader came back into the office and we both said it to her and she said 'no no' we are not to organise anything like that. Why not I said? And she just said kept saying 'no no'.

THEN, Team leader said she had been in touch with X and had told her she needs to come back to the office as it's been 3 weeks - X had apparently been doing working from home, and some compassionate leave, and some annual leave. X asked to work from home for the time being (she lives a long way - we are doing 3 days in, 2 days wfh) but team leader said no, she has to come back properly. She even said to X that she will arrange for her to work in this horrible little office we have - that has no windows - and she can work in there on her own if she doesnt want to sit in the office with us???? I was gobsmacked. She said she has told X she needs to get signed off by a doctor or come back asap. Fair enough I know - even though managers are allowed to "use discretion" when it comes to working from home and personal circumstances - this manager likes to follow the rules to the letter. More than that though - why can't we send a card? Is that an "English" thing?? I know in Ireland there's no way nothing would have been done by now. I feel so sorry for X that she has had nothing from her work colleagues at all. I mean, am I wrong or?? Feel so bad. Have bought a card and will send it myself if team leader won't let us send a group one.

YBVU
If indeed she was a friend and not just a work acquaintance, you'd have her home number and she would have told you herself.

This. Is it very obvious. Just leave it alone.

You say shameful. I think people are just reserved and tactful.

I recall a boss saying something to me when my nana died (very stressful) and I just wished he hadn’t said anything! I think he said he “knew how I felt” and that was what I did not want to hear as it’d been very stressful for various reasons. No cards or flowers from work but they were grandparents.

when my dad died I think I got flowers and also an offer of speaking to a bereavement counsellor through the wife of my boss, which I declined.

This.

Hey OP, I’m Irish too - I think it is just a cultural thing. Other countries don’t seem to do bereavement like we do. If this colleague isn’t Irish too, prob best leave the card - she may think it strange

Really shocked at some of the replies you are getting on here, OP. It doesn't sound cultural to me, it just sounds like you have an arsehole Team Leader. (And I'm comparing working in both London and Dublin.) Most companies would have a policy that would restrict managers releasing any personal information to the team without the individual's permission but, given the TL's previous behaviour, it sounds like this may not be the case here.

And telling her she HAS to come back and work in a shitty little office (when she is probably still shocked and grieving) when there is the option to WFH is just fucking pedantry.

I think I would ask the friend who told you whether your colleague wants people to know and acknowledge what happened (by sending a card, for example), or whether she wants to grieve in private.

Unfortunately, it’s true. 😞

Why do you think mumsnet has not taken it down.

@GonnaGetGoingReturns

Wrt the 'reserved and tactful' way of dealing with death -

I was on a thread a few years ago, started by a poster who had been out driving somewhere and was outraged by what she saw as cheeky fuckery in the driving of a funeral cortege.

The howls of 'Unbelievable cheek' and 'Appalled' and 'Shocking that you were delayed' and 'Cheeky fuckery/ entitled/ who do they think they are!?!?' were something to behold.

I made a comment to the effect that in the US region where I live, funeral processions, some involving a hundred cars following the hearse, have right of way and proceed through red lights and past stop signs, and the vast majority of people consider this only right and proper as a mark of respect to the bereaved.

The responses were (1) not at all reserved or tactful (2) the usual offensive anti American BS.

What all of this boils down to is that there are many people here who like their fairly narrow emotional comfort zone and are prepared to use all sorts of justifications for not venturing out of it.

@Deemarie11

Not in my experience.

Sometimes there's a delay in burying someone because relatives are making travel arrangements to get back from different parts of the world. My dad's funeral was delayed to give me time to get back.

An old neighbour otoh was taken from the nursing home to the cematorium where there was a nice humanist service followed immediately by interment and a knees up in a function room at a nearby pub.

The colleague might have told the team leader they didn't want a card/flowers/colleagues told about what happened.

Hopefully that's the case and your employer is respecting this.

The bigger issue for me is that your team leader has absolutely no right to discuss this staff members leave arrangements and the requirement for fit notes etc so I'd be more pissed off about that.

And at the risk of being shot down in flames, I'd like to comment to those suggesting it's the nature of the death that warrants the 'privacy', supporting the family after a murder or suicide would be considered far more of a necessity in the US than it appears to be in the UK.

I've been to such funerals, sadly, including one where about 3000 people were jammed into a church whose capacity was about 2500 at most. People brought food for the family for months, took the children for days out, cleaned the house, did the garden, paid bills.

I remember that thread well. As I remember it it was more about people saying that here it is unknown to have a procession of cars and there was no way OP could have known all the cars were in a procession and even if they thought they were it didnt give them right of way over the normal rules of the road. Which I stand by!

Nobody ever does a small funeral , a non religious funeral, a quiet funeral. Even if they wanted one. Nobody gets to express their own individual wishes. It is always a massive religious funeral with the priest droning on.

@Deemarie11

That's not true. At all.

I'm Irish, have lived in a number of places in Ireland.

While until fairly recently, most funerals were church-based, usually Catholic, and done in a certain way.

However, I've been to many different funerals in the last 5 - 10 years - humanist services, Catholic funerals with no removal / funeral home, large and small ceremonies.

Funerals may be large, but they aren't always. People certainly do get to express their wishes, when it's possible. The last funeral I was at, the deceased person had chosen the readings, music & preference for a eulogy prior to her death.

I think there are two separate issues:

TL’s aggressive pursuit of getting your colleague back to work, and suggesting they work in a windowless office. TL sounds like a dick.

Work not sending condolences to your colleague: this could well be at your colleague’s request and you doing it at your own behest is hugely inappropriate.

For me, colleagues are colleagues, work is work, it’s entirely separate from my life and I don’t want performative grief vampires getting in on the bereavement action: that’s not how you mean it, but it’s certainly how I’d receive it.

Yeah 3 days is standard here too. A week would be long. I have also never seen anyone in black veils? Are the people writing this stuff actually Irish in Ireland? And yes you can choose what type of funeral you have. Usually it's like communion and confirmation though, people go along with it for the sake of it but I'd someone specifies something then of course its respected.

Are the people writing this stuff actually Irish in Ireland?
They wish

@cofingalthetime I think you are right - she is a friend and you are concerned for her. Could you perhaps send her a short text saying you are sending your love to her, without specifically mentioning what has happened, and hopefully she will respond and let you know how she is doing? I’m English and I get frustrated by the lack of compassion in our country. My dFIL died a few years ago and he was like my second dad, wonderful chap he was. I told work and they said I couldn’t take bereavement because he wasn’t my actual dad. You sound like a lovely person and concerned for your friend. Ignore the gaslighters on here 💐

This is not a 'normal' bereavement, so flowers and a card may not be appropriate. Do you actually know anything about the circumstances, OP? For all you know the perpetrator could be from the same family, or the murder could have been related to drugs or organised crime, there could be many reasons why your colleague may not want people at work to know. Your TL sounds like a bit of a twat but that doesn't mean she's wrong in this instance. If your colleague has explicitly told the TL that she doesn't want anyone at work to know then of course it's not ok for flowers and a sympathy card from work to turn up at her door!

@cofingalthetime

I think you make some valid points about cultural differences around death, and I've observed this too.

However, you've been pretty insulting to English people by extrapolating from that that all English people are uncaring!

In this situation, I think there would be extreme sensitivity around this bereavement in Ireland too. I cannot imagine it would be openly discussed or gossiped about, with respect to the individual's feelings. It's different to a 'usual' bereavement. I think flowers & a card may be quite tactless here, as it's a shocking & deeply distressing loss - I manage a team, and with something like this, I would check directly with the colleague concerned and take my cue from them.

In terms of disclosing information, I work in a public sector role & have to be extremely conscious of disclosing any information. All I now do is say 'X is unwell and will be out until y date'. This follows one or two occasions where I shared something relatively innocuous ('X has flu') and was reprimanded.

This is very much in my capacity as a manager; on a personal basis, peers share information all the time but it's really emphasised about the need for privacy from a manager.

If a close work colleague is off for 3 weeks you are not allowed to enquire if they are ok?

If you enquired of me, as a manager, I could not provide any details. Asking a peer or directly contacting the individual would be different.

This is because team members need to know they can trust me, and if I knew any private information about them, I would not disclose it, in my capacity as manager.

I find it strange how a murdered brother can be kept such a secret tbh. The brother of a man I worked with was murdered in another part of the country, but we all knew about it via newspaper reports, death notices in the local paper etc. I tend to agree with you OP, it's all very odd. There is no way this could be kept secret forever, surely it would be better to get it all out in the open now. I would also be rather disappointed and hurt if a death in my family was completely ignored by the people I worked with, and I couldn't imagine it happening here (not in the UK).

I dont know how good your management is - it should be a standard question to ask what the person wants their colleagues to know. But a lot of managers dont ask that, and the person coming back is put in the horrible position of telling their colleagues what happened. And only 3 weeks off is crap - I hope she gets herself signed off.

I didn’t see that thread and I’d agree with you and others, it’s a funeral cortège so I guess you would have carte blanc to go through red lights etc. However, I would say, in this country, not many know the protocol around this, they’re not aware of it and I agree that sadly a lot of us are selfish and in a hurry as are many other people in the world…

I don’t know why people including you have to make it cultural…

One of my best friends is American and lives in America, we don’t have cultural top trump fights!

The OP here despite what her LM does or not is trying to make it about her rather than think about the woman who’s lost her brother in a horrific death.

And the Irish way of inviting everyone to the funeral is a cultural thing.

This is a murder of a sibling and potentially media sensitive. I’ve also seen at work in the past few years with data protection and GDPR becoming more prominent, HR and LM’s are less willing to let the colleague be bothered, probably for fear in case she may launch a HR case.

Like I mentioned earlier there’s no harm in OP speaking to her colleague in a quiet moment or giving her a sympathy card but she needs to step back for now.