Is this weird - work related - is it cultural?

[cofingalthetime]

So just to start - I'm Irish.
So I work in a office in a small team. Colleagues has been off for 3 weeks. The first week she was off I asked the team leader was she ok, and she said she it was "personal". So of course I respect people's privacy and didn't want to pry and so I didn't ask anything or mention it again. I was in the office with TL and one other girl yesterday. And I just happened to say to the other girl "I hope X is ok, she has been off for a while" and the girl said did I not know, but X's brother had been murdered! I was so shocked, and upset that I didn't know. I asked her had flowers or a card not been sent -and she said no - that not even our Head knew what happened, that the TL hadn't told anyone, and this girl had heard it from a completely different friend of X's. (X is friends with people outside our dept, she's worked there for years).

I said we should organise at least a card from our team, to let her know we were thinking of her. That we should maybe send flowers... that I'd be happy to chip in if the company didn't want to pay (notoriously stingy).

Team leader came back into the office and we both said it to her and she said 'no no' we are not to organise anything like that. Why not I said? And she just said kept saying 'no no'.

THEN, Team leader said she had been in touch with X and had told her she needs to come back to the office as it's been 3 weeks - X had apparently been doing working from home, and some compassionate leave, and some annual leave. X asked to work from home for the time being (she lives a long way - we are doing 3 days in, 2 days wfh) but team leader said no, she has to come back properly. She even said to X that she will arrange for her to work in this horrible little office we have - that has no windows - and she can work in there on her own if she doesnt want to sit in the office with us???? I was gobsmacked. She said she has told X she needs to get signed off by a doctor or come back asap. Fair enough I know - even though managers are allowed to "use discretion" when it comes to working from home and personal circumstances - this manager likes to follow the rules to the letter. More than that though - why can't we send a card? Is that an "English" thing?? I know in Ireland there's no way nothing would have been done by now. I feel so sorry for X that she has had nothing from her work colleagues at all. I mean, am I wrong or?? Feel so bad. Have bought a card and will send it myself if team leader won't let us send a group one.

OP, why not forget about how you think your colleagues should be reacting, or what your TL won't allow due to being such a horrible twat, and just send a VERY short discrete message, one with no expectation of a reply, to tell your colleague 'thinking of you' or 'here if you need anything' agus sin é.
You can reach out just a wee bit and leave it there.

It isn’t a “cultural issue” to go about life with a heart of stone. Your poor colleague.

@Deemarie11 - very wise words. very sorry to hear about your Dad.

As someone who had 2 stillborn sons, I specifically asked my boss to make sure no one from work contacted me either time as I couldn't handle it. It's not necessarily a culture thing, it's more an individual choice.

For goodness sake, stop making someone else’s bereavement about you and how you think it should be handled! Any questions from anyone else pass to your line manager. Given she is English, and your opinions on English attitudes, maybe back off, sounds as though you want to do your thing when perhaps she wouldn’t be comfortable. Why would you expect her to welcome an Irish reaction when you’re clearly drawing a distinction between that and English reaction?

@DappledThings

It is extraordinary that there wouldn't be a procession of cars for funeral. In fact, if a funeral cortege consisted of only the hearse and a car or two following, it would be considered incredibly sad.

I do not think it is cultural. I am Irish living in Ireland and have had bereavements I did not want my work crowd to know about and would have been mortified by the acknowledgement. Not everyone wants sympathy or empathy. Some people shy away from any kind of attention.

Her brother has been murdered. She will never get over it. Additionally, she will spend the rest of her life worrying about how her parents are coping.

But no. Her big worry will be if she gets flowers from the office.

But not in England. There might be 50 cars travelling between the church and the burial site or the crematorium and the hotel where everyone is going afterwards or some combination of all of those or others. But other than the hearse and 1 or 2 limousines they aren't in a procession and don't expect to get priority.

And it doesn't change that with everyone in their ordinary cars and none of these flags you've mentioned there is no way of knowing if car 5, 10 or 20 behind a hearse is following the hearse or is just someone who happened to be behind it.

I'd assume in this case the bereaved person asked her workplace to keep the information confidential. So if a few people from the workplace send a card and flowers it looks like the confidentiality hasn't been kept (although you actually found outbreak another source).

And as others have said one of the biggest differences between English and Irish cultures is the attitude to death. It's a private thing focused on the closest relatives and friends in England. In Ireland it seems to be a community event. (I'm English married to an Irishman.)

OP
If you are close to her, send flowers yourself.
Your team leader is probably acting under orders from HR.

When a previous managers mum died, we were on strict instructions not to contact her. We knew her well, so as a team we sent flowers.
Just send your own flowers. If you know her well, get in touch and say you are all thinking of her.

Exactly.

Exactly this. You need to leave it OP.

In my office the team leader will only tell the team if they have permission. Some people prefer to keep things quiet, others ask for everyone to be told. A colleague recently lost her husband who was in his 40’s. She asked for us to let everyone know, so we did. We also arranged a card and collection for her children. Not everyone wants this though, which is fair enough. It’s difficult as a manager as you need to respect peoples personal life and data protection. A member of our team once asked that nothing is sent to her address (as her manager sent her a voucher and get well card). She has history which causes her anxiety for people to know where she lives. So you have to tread a fine line

Telling a friend, who is a work colleague, is totally different from telling a boss/supervisor/person in charge.

If you talk to a friend, or a friend finds out, then there is no expectation of confidentiality (unless you specifically say "Don't tell anyone") whereas any conversation about your personal information is automatically assumed to be confidential information (Unless you specifically say "Tell everyone") and they cannot tell anyone, unless they specifically need to know specific information beyond "Jane is off on personal leave, she won't be back on the office until at least November 20th" (eg if it was for surgery then all anyone needs to know is that Jane is on sick leave, but if Jane works in the parcel room and lifts heavy parcels all day then a a supervisor needs to know that Jane had hernia surgery so can't do any lifting for 6 weeks so that they can modify her duties)

The person who is friends with your colleague has clearly not been told "Tell everyone" nor have they been told "Don't tell anyone", so they're just telling people the facts as and when someone mentions your colleague or asks after them. This is totally different to a TL who cannot tell anyone any information, even if they want to, as they have a duty of confidentiality to an employee.

Like I said before I'm a union rep at work. If a friend comes to me to talk about a personal situation then I can tell anyone as it's just a private conversation (though I would take my cue from them as to whether to share the info or keep it private) but if they ask my advice as a union rep about the same situation then I cannot tell anyone as it is a confidential conversation as I only know the information due to my role as rep and they came to me as a rep not as a friend.

I still don't think we've had an answer from the OP about why she think that her feelings (which she admits are cultural) about what should be done in the event of a colleague's bereavement are more important than the wishes of a) the bereaved colleague and b) the rest of the staff, who (assuming they are mostly English) probably have a culturally different (not wrong) attitude towards these things compared with the OP.

There is something spectacularly arrogant and insensitive about joining a community or organisation in a different country from your own and wanting them all to change and do things your way. Especially when it's something that's personal/cultural rather than a genersl working practices thing.

Quite. I'm English and wouldn't dream of behaving in such a cavalier fashion if I were living in another country.

Again OP stop making it about you!

i worked in an office where my colleague’s brother was found dead (heart attack) this was after I’d joined but colleague was still sensitive about it.

I’ve worked in places where I know a friend who works in the same place has had a miscarriage but her colleagues bar direct reports don’t know…

the English certainly are not cold and unfeeling towards death! You’ve only got to look at the outpouring of grief towards the late Queen Elizabeth II recently! We just don’t make it all about ourselves especially when it’s a sensitive topic like a murder.

but you seem determined to ignore your colleague’s wishes and co workers wishes…

Yep same here! Me neither!

I’d rather back off and take the lead from others rather than jump in feet first like OP is trying to do…

Exactly this - my in laws are Irish, I’m from the UK. An Irish death is a communal thing, a British death is much more of a private affair. All sorts of vague acquaintances turn up to the removal in particular (timed for the late afternoon so they can go straight after work). I think the British approach can appear cold to the Irish - just as the Irish style may seen prurient and over- invested to the British.

Given what you said about this colleague being shocked the TL hadn’t passed on news if her long illness, and the fact that you found out via a private association, I see no problem with you sending a personal condolence card - maybe emphasizing that you found out from the other colleague rather than officially from the TL.

Is a card to say ‘I’m really sorry your brother died’ really considered a cavalier gesture?!

Regardless of the circumstances of his death, murder, accident, suicide, sudden death - it was still an unexpected and huge personal loss, and I am baffled that colleagues would studiously ignore the bereavement.

I was referring to OP's disregard for and antagonism towards the culture and people she's chosen to live among. But, yes, sending a card in such circumstances could be seen as cavalier. I got cards from a particular colleague when I suffered three close family bereavements in quick succession. Very nice, you might think, except that this entailed her getting my home address from the company secretary (which should not have been given out), and making my losses all about her when I returned to work. Worse, she had made my life at work a complete misery during this period, being incredibly unkind and insulting because she didn't think I was grieving in the right way. In short, she was a vulture. So, yeah, getting a card isn't always welcome...
What you call studiously ignoring a bereavement is what I call respecting someone's privacy.

It’s cavalier if the colleague doesn’t want work tangled up in her bereavement, yes. Which as far as the OP knows, must be the case. It would be a real jolt, if you’d requested no contact from work except your line manager/HR to discuss return, to suddenly get a card from a colleague. Creepy, invasive and prurient.