Is this weird - work related - is it cultural?

[cofingalthetime]

So just to start - I'm Irish.
So I work in a office in a small team. Colleagues has been off for 3 weeks. The first week she was off I asked the team leader was she ok, and she said she it was "personal". So of course I respect people's privacy and didn't want to pry and so I didn't ask anything or mention it again. I was in the office with TL and one other girl yesterday. And I just happened to say to the other girl "I hope X is ok, she has been off for a while" and the girl said did I not know, but X's brother had been murdered! I was so shocked, and upset that I didn't know. I asked her had flowers or a card not been sent -and she said no - that not even our Head knew what happened, that the TL hadn't told anyone, and this girl had heard it from a completely different friend of X's. (X is friends with people outside our dept, she's worked there for years).

I said we should organise at least a card from our team, to let her know we were thinking of her. That we should maybe send flowers... that I'd be happy to chip in if the company didn't want to pay (notoriously stingy).

Team leader came back into the office and we both said it to her and she said 'no no' we are not to organise anything like that. Why not I said? And she just said kept saying 'no no'.

THEN, Team leader said she had been in touch with X and had told her she needs to come back to the office as it's been 3 weeks - X had apparently been doing working from home, and some compassionate leave, and some annual leave. X asked to work from home for the time being (she lives a long way - we are doing 3 days in, 2 days wfh) but team leader said no, she has to come back properly. She even said to X that she will arrange for her to work in this horrible little office we have - that has no windows - and she can work in there on her own if she doesnt want to sit in the office with us???? I was gobsmacked. She said she has told X she needs to get signed off by a doctor or come back asap. Fair enough I know - even though managers are allowed to "use discretion" when it comes to working from home and personal circumstances - this manager likes to follow the rules to the letter. More than that though - why can't we send a card? Is that an "English" thing?? I know in Ireland there's no way nothing would have been done by now. I feel so sorry for X that she has had nothing from her work colleagues at all. I mean, am I wrong or?? Feel so bad. Have bought a card and will send it myself if team leader won't let us send a group one.

I think 3 weeks off is standard with a close family death. My colleague got 2 weeks off with the death of her mother recently.

It really is a cultural thing OP, I'm English born to Irish parents and I find the English way so so strange and cold!! That said, your workplace/team leader does sound a bit odd and extreme. If you have a phone number for your colleague I would send them a text x

I think 3 weeks off is standard with a close family death.

As bereavement leave, no it isn't. Typically up to 5 days are provided as part of an organisation's provision in the case of death of an immediate family member.

Some organisations may have additional discretionary leave available.

In most organisations, any additional leave will be annual leave, unpaid leave or sick leave. It's not considered wrong at all to need that additional time, but it has to come under some heading of leave.

😆

But surely everyone realises that the MN 'rules' are only applied in respect of certain sectors, the English/British are fair game to the 'caring'.

YANBU to feel that it's a bit callous of the team manager to press your colleague to return more quickly , given the circumstances.

However, I do feel that you are a bit U about the card. Your colleague may desperately wish for her privacy to be respected at a time of grief, and not to have to deal with comments, however well-meant, from people who may not know her well, and did not know her brother at all. Especially given the particularly tragic circumstances, and the possibility of news-related gossip.

In times of bereavement, I find that it adds to my pain to have to deal with other people's approaches and condolences, especially if they did not know the person who died, and privacy and lack of social pressure are very important to me. I don't know that it's cultural; it's just me. I know not everyone is the same; but it seems that in this case, your colleague did not ask for her bereavement to be publicized at work, and may have asked for it not to be. To press people to make their grief social before they are ready may be just as damaging as pressing them to return to work before they are ready.

I do think that your team manager should have said that your colleague might wish for privacy at the moment, rather than just saying 'no no no' .

Well, obviously I hope you never suffer a bereavement at all!

But respecting someone's need for privacy is not 'cold and uncaring'.

I actually wouldn't do the card. Maybe she's really low, in shock, in denial - there could be more to the situation that your friend isn't aware of - and doesn't want to think that anyone is aware or talking about it. I'd send a message saying that I hoped she was alright and we'd been missing her, let me know if you need anything etc. but nothing explicit.

My dad died in a car accident when I was a teenager and it was during the school summer holidays. We sat the whole of August watching his body slowly shut down on life support and my DM refused to accept that he wasn't going to wake up. It was really horrendous. When I got back to school in September, I remember thinking "thank God I'm back here and nobody knows or will say anything to me about it." In reality, I think most people knew, and certainly all the teachers did. I was aware of that on some level and (of course) some of my friends had known while it was happening. But this happened while most people were away for holidays and it was in the mid-noughties, pre 24/7 mobile use. But I just wanted everything to be normal and I would have hated it if anyone had expressed sympathy or treated me differently!

Exactly! Treating a bereaved person how THEY wish to be treated is far kinder than riding roughshod over their feelings and treating them how you think they ought to do bereavement.

100%. That's what I was trying to say in my long and rambling message above!

It is not gossiping or salivating over details to be concerned about someone whose brother has been murdered. It is human compassion.

I think if you’re Irish and used to all the ritual and so on which goes on in Ireland with a death then that’s great but trying to emulate this in England (unless you’re Irish, Catholic or a religion that follows lying in wake) is never going to go down well as we just don’t do this here!

I was shocked seeing a person lying in wake in Ireland but my stepdad had told me what happens (and the Angelus, etc…) but I was still a bit freaked out visiting Ireland and hearing death notices come over the car radio!

Oh come on… we have all heard of grief thieves and people gossiping about death!

I do think OP was partly doing this, gossiping and feeling sorry for her colleague. But at least own it…

Where I REALLY think your TL is breathtakingly unprofessional is in giving the team all the details of her discussion/argument with your colleague about when and how she should return to work! That sort of thing should obviously be kept confidential.

In our organisation I don’t know currently how much leave is given when someone dies but at a previous company it was 2 weeks for a parent.

YABU

Where I work, if a member of staff gives information regarding an absence to a manager it is automatically assumed that the information will be kept confidential unless the member of staff explicitly says to inform other people, as it is a breach of confidentiality to give out any personal information. Even something as innocuous as "Jane Smith will be late today as she was supposed to start at 1pm but she is having her COVID Booster jab at 1.30pm so won't be in till 2pm" is classed as breach of confidentiality as it reveals details of the staff member's medical information.

I'm a shop steward for my union and I had a colleague who I am friends with contact me a few weeks ago to ask advice regarding bereavement leave due to an imminent death in the family (Family member with terminal illness had taken a turn for the worse so they were literally just waiting for them to pass). In that situation I am not allowed to discuss her bereavement with any other colleagues as the information was given to me as part of my role as a rep. If however I had been chatting with her at work, or we had been messaging to check in as we often do and she mentioned the imminent death then I could tell anyone at work about it as I was being told as a friend and so there's no expectation of confidentiality. Obviously I would take my cue from the person and either ask them if they wanted people to know or just assume they didn't want me to gossip and keep my mouth shut unless/until someone asked me "Hey, do you know where X is?" and then I'd be honest without gossipy "X has had a family bereavement so they're probably on leave at the moment".

It is entirely possible that the staff member has said "Please don't tell everyone, I don't want a fuss made and I want this keeping as private as possible". If that is the case then the TL cannot tell anyone (other than any other leadership team members who have a business need to know, but they are also bound by confidentiality not to gossip) even if they want to.

Friends who also happen to be work colleagues are under no such professional obligation. If I know that Jane Smith is off for her COVID jab because she mentioned it to me last week then I can tell anyone I like as, unless the colleague specifically said not to say anything, there is no expectation of confidentiality in colleague conversation. I would however take my cue from the person in question and only tell people what I knew if they specifically asked, much like the OPs co-workers friend, who only told the OP the details when the OP brought up the co-worker in her hearing. If she was trying to get the info out on behalf of the co-worker surely she would be more proactive in catching people for a "quiet word about co-worker"?

Apparently 75% of people who have read the Op’s thread doesn’t think she is being unreasonable. I think she is trying to be kind to someone who is in pain nothing sinister about that.

Unless she had specifically said that she doesn’t want people to know then my work place would have sent a card/gift.

Maybe cultural, I am European, lost my dad on my birthday a few months back. My manager who is Irish has been the most caring person and gave me all the compassionate leave I needed. But I had no flowers or card from the company or team. when I came back to work I was called into a surprise birthday Zoom call for a colleague which floored me and found totally insensitive as the team knew I got the news about my dad shortly after my very own birthday zoom call 2 weeks before. It was horrible, had to put on a brave face for the birthday girl but wanted to die inside

I'm sorry that happened @cato40

I guess I feel protective about my colleagues as I know my TL has done weird things before. And to the person who said I wanted to know a friend's medical details - this is what happened - my friend told me she had breast cancer, she told the team leader, and TOLD the team leader she would like her to tell the team as she didn't want to have to tell them individually. 2 weeks later she rang me in tears as she couldn't believe nobody from work had contacted her. As I'm NOT a gossip, I hadn't told anyone or mentioned it to anyone. I left it to the team leader. In the end I told people individually, and organised a card and flowers for her myself, as the TL refused to saying it was inappropriate. So I'm upset to think of X at home thinking that nobody in work gives a shit about her. Her close friend is telling people, so that would indicate to me that she does want people to know why she is off.

And I know my friend was touched and comforted by the messages and the card I organised when she had cancer. If I had left it up to the TL nothing would have been done.
But yeah after reading all these messages I'm just going to keep my head down and send my friend a personal card just from me - I'll take the risk that she'll be offended. She has told me all about her family, she has a big family, and she talks about them a lot! She's a very open person, not at all secretive or private which makes me worry that she's upset her workplace have done nothing.

But I had no flowers or card from the company or team.

I'm so sorry for your loss cato

However, in Ireland, it's absolutely not usual for a card or flowers to be sent by the organisation. Individuals do that instead - and in Ireland as most people who know the individual who has been bereaved either attend the funeral or sympathise directly, this makes sense. (I mention this due to your reference to your manager being Irish)

Calling you into a Zoom birthday call, given the circumstances of your bereavement, is certainly insensitive. However, after my DF died, I took a week off only (funeral is held fairly immediately in Ireland) and once I was back wanted everything to be as normal, including any celebratory events, social events.

which makes me worry that she's upset her workplace have done nothing.

What would you expect them to do though? Her brother has been murdered. This is awful & shocking, and at a workplace level, there's really nothing that can be said or done. (Tho TL should clearly be more supportive)

It's of course fine to send a card yourself - I'd absolutely contact a close colleague in this situation

I know there's nothing that can help, but if it happened to me, and nobody from work contacted me, and there was nothing from my workplace, I would be upset.

X has obviously told her close friend that it's ok to tell people and to talk about it - as that is how people have found out what happened.