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To let my dd take this to school

204 replies

flightofthesevenmillionbumblebees · 10/07/2022 21:11

Dd (10) loves stranger things and this w/e bought herself a hellfire club water bottle. She goes to a Christian school. The bottle says hellfire club and has an image of the devils head (as in the programme).

Aibu to let her use this water bottle as her school water bottle?? We are not a religious family and I personally think that this is just something from a tv programme (that is not in anyway about devil worshipping or anything actually related to the devil or religion - under those circumstances I might consider it insulting to Christians), and really is no different to her taking in a water bottle that's Harry Potter themed, or Star Wars etc.

The reason I'm even asking is because a couple of weeks ago dd made up this game where she draws the devil and gives him a 'health bar' like in a video game, and she asks you to think of things that might hurt him (e.g being hit by a car, throwing a spear at him, force feeding him cupcakes, being sat on by a giant panda - I've enjoyed the more inventive funny ones) and the health bar goes down until you kill him.

Just a silly thing she thought of and was doing in her notebook at some point during lunch break. Her teacher 'told her off' (I'm not sure how firmly it was said) and basically said it wasn't appropriate to be drawing a devil at a Christian school. So I'm thinking her teacher might also think it inappropriate to have this water bottle.

I personally don't see anything wrong with her having this water bottle (or the game!) and I'm happy to let her take it in tomorrow. But if her teacher tells her she can't have it then aibu to argue this with the teacher or should I just let it go and tell dd she can't take it in?

(Also apologies I'm using talk app so can't enable voting I don't think)

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WitchWithoutChips · 11/07/2022 07:37

Needmorelego · 10/07/2022 22:54

Why are people saying Stranger Things is a '15' ? TV programmes in the UK don't have age ratings - although some channels/platforms may give a guidance rating. But that's it - just guidance. It's not a legal rating.
If it's released on DVD it would have to be given an age rating but it hasn't been released in the UK on DVD.
(I haven't watched it so can't comment on it)

The BBFC have rated seasons 1-3 of Stranger Things: www.bbfc.co.uk/release/stranger-things-q29sbgvjdglvbjpwwc0xmdazntqx. As you say the ratings are advisory rather than statutory but they have applied the same criteria as for cinematic releases.

S4 hasn’t been rated yet but there are individual episodes which are certainly at the very top of a 15 certificate and may well tip into an 18. Chrissy’s death in ep 1 is particularly brutal and graphic. 15 is a huge classification and there can be enormous variation in a work which just misses out on a 12A and one which is right at the top of the rating.

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MoonBat · 11/07/2022 07:49

I work in a C of E primary school, I'm in my late 30s and I made the decision not to wear my Hellfire Club tshirt on non uniform day last week. It's not appropriate.

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Sirzy · 11/07/2022 07:51

I always find common sense media a useful start point when trying to decide on appropriateness

www.commonsensemedia.org/tv-reviews/stranger-things

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Belephant · 11/07/2022 07:58

I stopped watching stranger things as I felt it got dull after season 2, so I don't know what this hellfire thing is. But aside from the fact that an image of the devil is an obviously contentious thing to take into a C of E school, don't you think there's a worry that other children might be scared by it?

I was christened, but I'm not especially religious other than a vague belief in "something else". But things to do with the devil etc have always scared me - it would have upset me as a young child if I'd have had to look at an image of the devil every day at school because my peer had it on their bottle!

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Mummyoflittledragon · 11/07/2022 07:58

The fact your dd was allocated to this school is irrelevant. My dd was given a place at a secondary school that was not of her choosing. I didn’t see this as an opportunity to upset the other children or staff members or not abide by the rules. Have you not thought about what precedent that sets to a young child?

You know this is offensive to Christians. It’s also inappropriate in any primary school. I don’t understand why you bought such an offensive and inappropriate water bottle in the first place.

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QuinkWashable · 11/07/2022 08:00

I wouldn't.

I'm not at all religious, although my kids go to a church school (although with kids from various faiths). I've taught them basically to choose their battles, and if someone believes in God, and you do bible stories etc. Unless it's harming someone then just smile and be polite. You don't have to challenge everything, or believe what they do.

I don't see the point in being antagonistic with devil imagery - just use a normal water bottle for school.

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sleepyhoglet · 11/07/2022 08:05

This isn't about religion- it is about showing and encouraging your daughter to watch something inappropriately. If you want to let her watch it, then don't encourage it by sending ina water bottle advertising that she has!

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ExcaliburBaby · 11/07/2022 08:06

totally inappropriate. YABU (also for letting a 10 year old watch Stranger Things)

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missdemeanors · 11/07/2022 08:09

Seeing as you know her teacher had an issue with the devil drawings, then I'd say there's a good chance a water bottle with devils on will be offensive too. Don't think it needs a MN consultation to draw that conclusion

Seeing as in your words you have frequent communication with the school, then why not ask the teacher rather than random opinions?

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CatchingSocks · 11/07/2022 08:13

CatLadyDrinksGin · 10/07/2022 21:37

As an adult who works in a school I’d be flagging it as a safeguarding issue that a 10 year old was watching something inappropriate.

@CatLadyDrinksGin

Well you clearly aren't an adult working in a school because otherwise you'd know that this is nothing close to a safe guarding issue!

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Athenajm80 · 11/07/2022 08:39

I know the bottle refers to Stranger Things, but the real Hellfire Club was a lot darker and it's odd to me that now people have this merchandise with it on when historically the club (allegedly) were linked with murder, rape, and satanic rituals en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club

Sorry, that's not helpful, I just always think of it when I see the Hellfire Club t-shirts etc

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SoS505 · 11/07/2022 09:03

Yep.
YABU

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EveryFlightBeginsWithAFall · 11/07/2022 09:07

Athenajm80 · 11/07/2022 08:39

I know the bottle refers to Stranger Things, but the real Hellfire Club was a lot darker and it's odd to me that now people have this merchandise with it on when historically the club (allegedly) were linked with murder, rape, and satanic rituals en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club

Sorry, that's not helpful, I just always think of it when I see the Hellfire Club t-shirts etc

I'm not sure many adults would know about it seeing as it was around the 18th century or some such, certainly can't see children knowing about it!

Theyre More likely to have heard about the hellfire marvel comics these days

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justfiveminutes · 11/07/2022 09:17

"Well you clearly aren't an adult working in a school because otherwise you'd know that this is nothing close to a safe guarding issue!"

I'm an adult working in a school and we log incidents of children watching programmes or playing games that are significantly beyond their age. It is logged for information only as it obviously doesn't meet the threshold for a referral.

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TheLadyofShalott1 · 11/07/2022 09:23

Starting to write at 05:56

Hi @flightofthesevenmillionbumblebees ,
I am curious to know if any of you have heard of the real life and most famous of such clubs known as the
"Hellfire Club" circa 1752

To be fair it was originally named by it's founder, Sir Francis Dashwood by various other names, one of them being
"The Order of the Friars of St.
Francis of Wycombe".

Please Google the "Hellfire Club". You will get a reasonable, but quite bland overview of both Francis Dashwood, and the Hellfire Club from Wikipedia.

Dashwood moved in the early 1750's to a leased mansion called Medmenham Abbey, where he had the motto
"Fais ce que tu voudras" -
"Do what thou wilt"
inscribed above a doorway in stained glass.

If any of this has held your interest so far, you may consider that motto to have some significance later on.

Certain 'meetings' were held (initially) at Medmenham Abbey, and very unusual for those days they were open to both sexes.
The meetings were eventually moved and held into a series of tunnels and caves in
West Wycombe Hill. They were decorated with mythological themes, phallic symbols and other things of a sexual nature.

Apparently records indicate that the members performed
"obscene parodies of religious rites"
The female guests were probably prostitutes. Some of the male members of the club were rumoured to be members of the gentry, and/or highly placed politicians from both British and American politics.

The West Wycombe Caves in which the Friars met are now a tourist site known as the "Hellfire Caves
Please refer to Wikipedia for further information on these caves.

However the first official Hellfire Club was founded in 1718 by
Philip, Duke of Wharton.
The main aim of the Hellfire Club formed by the Duke was
"to mock religion and its inherent hypocrisies".
The Club leader was called "The Devil".
The club was disbanded in 1721, but went on later to be replaced by the club established by Dashwood, and talked about above.

www.heritagedaily.com
tells us that Dashwood's Club had many rumours about it, talking of black magic, satanic rituals and orgies. The English writer Horace Walpole stated that the practice was "rigorously pagan ..."
in the 1760's the Club declined, possibly because Dashwood was made the
Chancellor of the Exchequer - which he was apparently not very successful at.

This all makes me imagine many of our present ministers as members of Dashwood's Hellfire Club, quite a lot of whom I can easily imagine in some of those rolls - but I had better not name names!

It is thought that here have continued to be "branches of, or copiers of" the Hellfire Club, or at least its ethos, in both Britain and Ireland up to this very day.

Though I feel that I must add that the vast majority of most modern Pagans, Witches, Wiccans and Druids are not members of such clubs, and do not practice so called Black Magic, but neither do the Witches call themselves White Witches. Wiccans today have a motto similar to that of the old Hellfire Clubs, and Aleister Crowly's "Do what thou will be the whole of the law", except it says something along the lines of 'Do what thou will, as long as it harms none', and that usually needs to be incorporated into their Spell Work. Any individual Witch can, at their own discretion and risk, not add the "and it harm none" part of the creed if they are doing a particular Spell against someone like Putin, or a paedophile etc.

I know through experience that the OP and other Mumsnetters who tend to be get put off by long posts will probablynot have read this far, and if they/you have read this, you may think that there is no connection to the OP's thread? Obviously I beg to differ. I must admit that until I read this thread I had never heard of of this Netflix program "Stranger Things", which some of you seem to be saying is based on a computer game called "Dungeon and Dragons"? But I may be quite wrong?

Anyway, I do hope that @flightofthesevenmillionbumblebees and the others of you here who are saying that there is no harm in the TV series, even for children as young as 10 years old, change your minds. Evil, and some humans desire to treat other humans with Evil, to torture them with either physical harm or mental pain, and in the worst, but probably the most profilic cases, both.
and
These Evil humans will usually pick on the most vunerable members of our society - to which I have to unfortunately include us, the females of our species, along with our children, our elderly (of whom I am one now) and our mentally and physically disabled (which thinking about it I am among those last two as well now). So most of you reading this won't believe in, the or even, a Devil, and I don't either, if he is supposed to be the way the Christian Church, and the film industry have portrayed both him and Hell.

However, I do very much believe in the Power of Evil, and the Power of Good. Are they actually 2 different Entities fighting each other? I cannot make that call.

What I do know is that I have felt Evil, both physiologically and mentally, but thankfully and gratefully, not that much so far, but I am not quite dead yet, so there is sadly still time for me.
Very fortunately, I have also felt Good, maybe God? But again not as a sort of benevolent, but mainly ineffective being who has promised us the World as long as we believe in Him. I do believe in Jesus, but as a Very Special Human. My views and beliefs differ quite a lot from the established Churches, so I don't consider myself to be a Christian (even though I was brought up as one and Confirmed as one, in the Anglican Church).

Sorry, I am digressing far too much, I am pretty sure that my person beliefs are of not much relevance or importance here!
What I am trying to say is that that depiction of the Devil on your child's water bottle does represent Evil, and he is supposed to represent Evil. So I would never have allowed one of my children to watch a program at 10 years old about an evil entity, even if the program was about fighting that evilness. We have plenty of superheroes aimed at children of your DC age upwards - I still like them in my 60's - but although those heroes are fighting evil, they aren't portrayed as fighting Evil, small and big children, even us adults will just think they are fighting back against different severities of nasty people.

We, and they, won't be thinking about real Evil, where tiny babies and small children are raped, and that the rapes are filmed so that thousands of other people (usually men) can enjoy and get off on watching them. If that creature in a German prison - the one who German authorities think killed Maddie McCann - is guilty of everything they say, then he is not an evil nasty entity (or human) who could have been stopped before he ever really got started, if only we had a Superhero, or a chocolate bar with the right ingredients in it to stop him. Putin won't be stopped by a Superhero, anymore than Hitler was. Please don't let our impressionable and young be part of, or subjected to something that they cannot possibly understand.

I think that it is human beings who make Hell on Earth, but I also believe in the power of the human mind, and I believe that our Power can be harvested for Evil, for Good, for Indifference, and I believe that indifference can be almost as harmful as evil, sorry. I believe that if people use Ouija boards, weak and maybe even strong minds, can succumb to hysteria? Maybe? Once the evil thoughts, the damaging thoughts, enter our minds, I believe that untold harm can be done, so even as an adult I would never use a Ouija board, and as an adult I would never knowingly let my child be exposed to a game or a film or a TV program where real Evil, the "Devil's" Evil, is supposed to exist, even as a made up being. That character on your DC's bottle is representing something, that represents something, that not one of us should ever treat as just a silly, or even funny game. It is neither.

IMO, even if all of what I think the Devil represents is put aside, can you not see OP how insulting and crass it would be for your DC to take that bottle into a Christian School.
I have just seen the time, 09:05 they will already be at school, did they take the bottle?
You may have already answered my last question, but if I refresh to check, I will lose all of this.

Finishing writing at 09:20

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TheLadyofShalott1 · 11/07/2022 09:27

Athenajm80 · 11/07/2022 08:39

I know the bottle refers to Stranger Things, but the real Hellfire Club was a lot darker and it's odd to me that now people have this merchandise with it on when historically the club (allegedly) were linked with murder, rape, and satanic rituals en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club

Sorry, that's not helpful, I just always think of it when I see the Hellfire Club t-shirts etc

@Athenajm80 you have said in a few lines what it has taken me over 3 hours to type!!

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TheLadyofShalott1 · 11/07/2022 09:33

EveryFlightBeginsWithAFall · 11/07/2022 09:07

I'm not sure many adults would know about it seeing as it was around the 18th century or some such, certainly can't see children knowing about it!

Theyre More likely to have heard about the hellfire marvel comics these days

@EveryFlightBeginsWithAFall no the children won't know about it, and many adults on here won't know about it. But I am absolutely certain that the makers of Stranger Things know about it and were influenced by it! Just as Dennis Wheatley almost certainly based some of his novels on it - he was friends with someone who was a friend of Aleister Crowly, and there is no doubt that he was an evil bastard.

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Mwnci123 · 11/07/2022 09:46

I agree with pp that taking the bottle in would be needlessly antagonistic. Just keep it for out of school. I have some sympathy given that you didn't choose a religious school, but a drinking vessel is really not worth causing any friction over. Similarly, I wouldn't bother phoning the school to ask about something so trivial.

PP saying there are safeguarding issue are being a bit bonkers.

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EveryFlightBeginsWithAFall · 11/07/2022 09:52

TheLadyofShalott1 · 11/07/2022 09:33

@EveryFlightBeginsWithAFall no the children won't know about it, and many adults on here won't know about it. But I am absolutely certain that the makers of Stranger Things know about it and were influenced by it! Just as Dennis Wheatley almost certainly based some of his novels on it - he was friends with someone who was a friend of Aleister Crowly, and there is no doubt that he was an evil bastard.

Actually it's thought that the writers were influenced by the 80s hellfire marvel comics

Which is more likely as its set in the 80s and revolves around a group of 12 year olds

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CatLadyDrinksGin · 11/07/2022 09:59

CatchingSocks · 11/07/2022 08:13

@CatLadyDrinksGin

Well you clearly aren't an adult working in a school because otherwise you'd know that this is nothing close to a safe guarding issue!

Drink bottle isn’t as issue, allowing a child to watch inappropriate material is.

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PeterOhanrahahanrahan · 11/07/2022 10:08

My DD's CofE school sent a note home before Roald Dahl day asking parents not to dress children as witches as this was inappropriate for a Christian school. I thought of asking why they had a problem with witches and not with Roald Dahl being a massive racist. But I didn't because I teach her school is a community, that rules matter and that it's not all about us or our preferences.

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CatchingSocks · 11/07/2022 11:24

@CatLadyDrinksGin

It's really not. Safeguarding teams have actual problem to keep them busy, don't be that person clogging up their inboxes.

No safeguarding team in the land would take any action on this.

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CatchingSocks · 11/07/2022 11:25

@PeterOhanrahahanrahan

Wow that would have me incandescent with rage given Christians have persecuted women for being witches!! Extremely inappropriate not to take responsibility for their past and try and suppress it!

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SirenSays · 11/07/2022 11:34

I'm not sure I see the big deal. It's just a water bottle. Surely if they have a problem they'll just ask her to use a different one tomorrow.

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CatLadyDrinksGin · 11/07/2022 11:45

CatchingSocks · 11/07/2022 11:24

@CatLadyDrinksGin

It's really not. Safeguarding teams have actual problem to keep them busy, don't be that person clogging up their inboxes.

No safeguarding team in the land would take any action on this.

No but it needs to be flagged as part of the wider picture about that child. If they’re exposed to inappropriate tv there may well be other issues.

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