Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

I can see the value of pronouns in some situations. If someone has a gender neutral name and is sick of being mistaken for the opposite sex perhaps. I know the done thing in the Stone Age was to sign yourself as Chris Notaman (Mrs./Miss) but revealing your marital status is completely inappropriate.

Is there a better way around things? I ask as I do have a good friend with a gender neutral name and her colleagues from 'the other offices' who've never actually seen her sometimes mistake her for a man. She's not keen on pronouns herself but really does get pissed off when she answers the phone and the caller is expecting some posh bloke! What do other people do?

To be honest I work in an organisation where names often are not a good clue and we often don't meet or talk until sone time after first contact

It doesn't matter - we manage without knowing the persons sex or gender easily

We don't work in a place where they matter to

Why is revealing martial state inappropriate but sex or gender not ?

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

This is a perfectly valid reason tbh.

@Anonymous48

I don't think you do understand.

I'm not asking anyone to form an opinion for me.

In this scenario there are people for and people against.

I've already read details and decided I am against.

I am not very good at articulating these matters and so I was calling upon the people that sit in my camp (against broadcasting pronouns) to share the reasons.

I already agree with all the reasons they set out, so no, I don't think you do understand.

Interested in hearing the opposition if you are so inclined to share should that be your position.

Sex and gender are two different things.

There was a discussion on this on the Jeremy Vine show this morning.
In response to the Halifax promoting pronoun badges for their staff. Presenter pointed out that Halifax pays female staff less than male staff!

One caller suggested the next step could be putting your race/ ethnicity in signature if we buy into this.
That makes as much sense.

I agree with @Hiphopopotamus

Ye sex and gender are different

Pronouns can refer to either

That's why I said sex or gender

Why is revealing either appropriate but mr/mrs not ?

My argument is st use my name. Her and she cane substituted for name. I also don't need a title, just use my name

Personally I think it’s all a bit pointless. I think far too many people are just jumping on the woke bandwagon with things like this and I refuse to. In my work, we sometimes have guest speakers who actually say ‘Hi, I’m Steve, he/him pronouns’. I cringe inside for them 🤦‍♀️

Because what other protected characteristics should we be forced to announce?

sexual orientation? Skin colour? Religion?

It blatantly opens the door to gender discrimination.

Aww, I remember the days when women would put their marital status in brackets after signing their name in a letter. That was primarily because if you needed to reply to them, you would start the letter with 'Dear Miss/Mrs/Ms'. I miss those days.

@landantan I'll have a go. I apologise in advance if I say anything inappropriate - it will be out of ignorance, not malice.

The truth is, it isn't always apparent that a man wishes to be called 'her' and a woman wants to be called 'him'. You might not know that someone was gender neutral either or any other identity either.

Some people who identify as transwomen look like men. Some people who identify as transmen look like women.

Society now has to be careful that it does not 'misgender' these people. Referring to a transwoman as a 'man' may constitute hate speech. Whether you agree with it or not, this is the way things are.

One thing people do to try and prevent misgendering is to add their pronouns to their email signatures. Some companies have made this compulsory.

Some people object to this being compulsory. There will be various reasons for this, perhaps they do not believe that a transwoman is a woman (for example) so consider the pronouns to be untrue (I'm certain there's a better explanation than this). Others may not wish to state their gender (whatever it may be) at all. There will be many reasons for this.

There will be lots more reasons to object but I should probably belt up in case I'm getting things wrong. That's just how I see it anyhow - please feel free to ignore!

I can't speak for you but I can tell you why I do not declare pronouns.

Declaring female pronouns is a public statement that I have a gender identity and that I believe it is that of "a woman" as experienced by cis- and trans-women.

Since neither of those things are true, I cannot in good conscience declare myself to have she/her/hers pronouns. It would mean claiming a gender identity I do not feel.

I used to think I could use gender neutral pronouns but given that female people are typically underrepresented in society I feel it is important not to hide my sex. I am not gender neutral, I am an agender female.

I accept that if I don't declare pronouns people will use the traditional female pronouns for me. I don't consider it as misgendering since after all those pronouns did originally just mean female, and until we have commonly understood replacements that just mean female this is the best I have. I will, however, correct anyone who refers to me as a cis woman because that clearly is misgendering me.

I've seen a few people at work, only women actually, add their pronouns to their email signatures. I've not been asked to, but if I am I won't.

Not sure of the point on emails though, because I don't need to know someone's pronouns to reply to an email. Or am I supposed to remember everyone's pronouns in case I bump into them in the canteen? I still wouldn't use them face to face though. I suppose it's only if I'm talking about someone, without them being there, that I'd naturally use a pronoun. Then again, without instant access to their emails, how would I remember everyone?

Oh yes, easy, because it's hardly ever an issue because "they/them" aren't/haven't popped up in my path so far, despite the media or whoever leading me to believe half the population is trans.

I'll respect anyone's pronouns, just let me know but feel free to guess mine when you see me. I don't have to spell them out.

Personally I don't feel it serves me as a woman to draw attention to that fact, given that sexism still exists.

I also don't really care what people call me in the third person.

I would say that to reduce space on email servers, and mental load in terms of number of words people have to process, senders should only put their pronouns if they are worried people will get them wrong. 99% of people don't fall into that category.

(I often can't tell the sex for Indian names, have sometimes googled to try and resolve, which hasn't always helped. So if you work for a multinational organisation and deal with other cultures, this could be a good reason to do it.)

You literally said, in your first sentence:

"Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does (sic) not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?"

I'm out.

My 99% made up number probably doesn't apply if you do work for a multinational.)

The thing about pronouns is that they’re not really used in your presence. If I’m talking to someone I’d don’t need to say he, she, they I just say ‘you’. Can you help me, do you know where the ... is? etc. I think I even had to look up what pronoun meant when it started hitting the headlines as it wasn’t a word I ever gave a thought to. Now the world is obsessed with something no one thought about twenty years ago🤷‍♀️

I don’t “identify” with my gender, and don’t want to remind people that I’m female, with with all the unconscious bias that comes with that.

I’m no more she/her than I am a brunette or someone with blue eyes. And I don’t feel attached to my hair or eye colour very much either.

I don't do it either, for many of the reasons mentioned in previous posts, but having met transwomen called David and Michael, and non-binary people called Juliette and Miranda, apparently just having an obviously female name isn't enough to identify me as a woman, so I'm not sure your first point works.

We had an all-staff email telling us we had to include our pronouns, and I'm not too fussed either way. Although my name is sort of gender neutral (slight difference in spelling), I use a short form which, in the UK at least, is almost invariably used by females.

I've noticed an awful lot of colleagues opting for they/them/theirs though, many of whom I know for a fact aren't gender neutral. I can't work out if they're trying to avoid gender stereotyping or if it's just a subtle way of taking the piss.

Classic gaslighting from @Anonymous48. Its okay to feel uncomfortable about something without quite being able to put your finger on why. For me its a lifetime experience of being seconded because of my sex, but trying to put this actually into an argument is difficult. My first memory was being on clearing cups duty at primary school, and the caretaker telling me I would make a good little housewife one day. Oddly enough I was flattered at the time, because girls are conditioned from a young age that their job is to be helpful to males. Its a crap argument, I know, but a lifetime a little instances like this build up to us not wanting to be defined at work by our sex. Not wanting to declare pronouns at work isn't anything to do with being trans-exclusionary, its about wanting to be judged by what we do, not what we are.