Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

If you're male and you say you are a woman because woman is a gender identity, you are doing exactly that.

You're deciding that women must consider themselves a "gender identity class" so that you can be included, and denying them the right and the vocabulary to identify themselves as a class of female people to which you do not belong.

Also.....

I'm a finance professional. My sex or gender or whatever anyone wants to give a fuck about this week, has precisely zero relevance to my job, so I'm perfectly happy to simply remain silent on it.

@beautyisthefaceisee

I don't. I couldn't care how someone identifies in their head. If they're a man as defined by humans for millenia, they'll continue to be a man to me. Ditto for a woman.

If a transwoman is really well passing and I thought they're a woman, I'd probably refer to them as she. Because that would be the easiest thing mentally.

I'd never use they them if I knew the person, as it's much easier to use he or she, depending on whether they were a he or a she.

Anyway, my point is pronouns are how people talk about you, and is based on how they perceive you. You can't dictate to the world how they should perceive you.

You're deciding that women must consider themselves a "gender identity class" so that you can be included, and denying them the right and the vocabulary to identify themselves as a class of female people to which you do not belong.

I like this way of putting it. I don't define myself by gender, so why should I encourage others to define me in that way?

To those of you saying you don’t want to “out” yourself as women and face sexism, I do understand your point. But doesn’t your name generally “out” you anyway? And that would be in your email/signature?

Haven’t RTFT but Sex Matters have a guide to resisting this bullshit

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/

Mine doesn't.
My name is used by both sexes.

Great post

Right.

So you'll only respect their identitity if they "look" good enough for you, and you address people depending on what's "easier" for you.

And they're entitled.

ROAR

‘To those of you saying you don’t want to “out” yourself as women and face sexism, I do understand your point. But doesn’t your name generally “out” you anyway? And that would be in your email/signature?’

no. My name is unisex. I also work with a myriad of Samantha’s who are Sams.
Charlottes who are charlie etc etc not to mention the thousands of people in my company or who we work with who don’t have ‘western’ or ‘ English’ names do their sex isn’t immediately obvious to those outside their countries.
And that’s before we get to the under 25s in our company who have trendy gender neutral, or quite frankly made up, names…

Well done OP. You have done precisely what you set out to do.

I respectfully use and will
continue to use any pronouns someone tells me they’d like to be addressed by, but I choose not to announce mine, and I don’t see why that is an issue.

That I can agree with.

I don't agree with people being forced to , as people might not want to give them for several reasons.

I however disagree with people refusing to respect other peoples and or posting disingenously like OP.

Darlingdarwin

I often use only an initial.

Eg J smith.

@beautyisthefaceisee

Im not sure what's causing your confusion.

If someone tells me they're a woman, when they're clearly a man, I'm not going to do mental gymnastics and start thinking of them as a woman. Because that would indeed be mental.

And 'respecting their identity' is just a word salad. Which is a nicer way of saying utter bollocks.

Yes it is not that I cannot see why it can be a positive but personally I had prior to this removed any reference to my gender from my email signature. I feel much more comfortable with that as I do not think my gender is at all relevant to my work. I also do not see that anyone needs to use my pronouns when they know my name. I very much dislike any reference to my gender and am highly aware of it for my kids - i am training myself to never say “boys will be boys, girls let do X… etc” so it feels very counter intuitive to now be asked to state my pro noun. I hate that I feel I am doing something unsupportive in refusing to, but I also feel very very uncomfortable being asked to state them. Its hard.

It's cumulative. Having the pronouns stated as well as the name makes it a bigger part of what people include in their mental model of you.

Kind of like the difference between wearing a football team's hat, and wearing the hat, the scarf, the t shirt, the facepaint and banner round your shoulders.

Research shows that women do worse in maths tests when they focus on the fact they are women. Clearly they must have known that already, but making it a focus still has a negative effect. If reinforcing the knowledge that a known woman is a woman affects people to think differently about their own selves, how do think it affects other people?

It’s not down to me to do something I don’t feel comfortable with to make others feel better about themselves. If trans people feel they stand out by declaring their pronouns that’s for them to manage their feelings on, it’s nothing to do with me.

OP I’ve not been asked yet this by my work but if it comes I’ll just ignore it and then say “not for me thanks” if it persists

Nice gaslighting there. I'm not confused. You're just wrong and ignorant.

Do you regularly go around being rude to people because they dont fit into what you approve of?

You never mentioned "mental". You said "easy". Suggesting that what is easier for you is a priority. Are you regularly nasty to other vulnerable groups because thats "easier"? Perhaps you comment loudly on peoples weight, abilities, looks? etc? No? Why is that different?

I think the pronoun thing is coercive.

We're conditioned to believe that not referring to a male person as "she" if that is what they want is unkind or disrespectful, so we do it because we want to be kind and respectful.

Next thing you know, the International Olympic Committee is saying "everyone agrees that trans women are women" to justify Laurel Hubbard being allowed to take the place of a young female athlete at the Olympics, the Labour front bench are all saying trans women are women and belong in our single sex spaces, and the Lib Dems are saying if you don't believe trans women are women, don't vote for us.

I don't want to be unkind or disrespectful towards anyone. But I also don't want to pretend I think trans women are women when I don't. And I feel like I have to choose between one or the other, because using the pronouns will be interpreted as a sign that I believe.

On the other hand, not using them could mean I get posts deleted on Mumsnet, my account blocked on Twitter, or even disciplinary action at work. So it's not really a free choice, is it?

Frankly I resent being put in this position.

Fuck pronouns.

You said 'I actually have slightly more respect for those on here who come out and say it'.

And I asked 'say what'.

What is 'it' in the context of that sentence?

This. It draws attention to women and has been shown to widen gaps not narrow them - outing people who don’t want to be outed. Just no

You don't agree with people being forced to announce a pronoun.

Yet you do agree with people being forced to accept a pronoun being forced on them.

@beautyisthefaceisee

Nothing disingenuous going on here.

I genuinely know that I do not agree with pronouns.

I genuinely struggle to articulate the reasons why and was asking for help on the matter.