Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

"maybe you need to think why and if you are transphobic." yawn. Very clever. Again.

Really quite pathetic.

Identity as isn't the same as being
That's why they are different words

Demanding, dismissive and attempting to shut up women.

Now who usually gets accused of that?

Can I ask a question?

You ask about compromise, yet when someone gives you it, you dont want it, and by your words, "YOU DONT GET TO STAND BY ME"

Cool. I won't. Cause if I'm picking a side, its trans every day of the week. If I'm not allowed in your camp cause I wont say "yes sir", then so be it.

This entire interaction sums up the problem. Yet, daily, I read "why wont trans stand up and support us"

I fucking wonder.

Your comparing your work environment to hers is making a false comparison. And you have done this several times.

I don’t ‘know all’ and I don’t claim to. But I am not the one on a MN thread calling people names and getting known facts wrong.

Then the definition of a trans woman is circular, and therefore entirely meaningless.

Nobody is any closer to understanding what trans women - or indeed you - believe a woman actually is.

I'd say if you feel the need to "identify as" something, that's because you're not whatever that thing is.

Woman isn't an identity.

It's a word for "adult humans of the female biological sex".

That is a group of people we actually need a word for.

"Adult humans of the female biological sex except those who believe they identify as men or non binary plus adult humans of the male biological sex who believe they identify as women" is not a group of people we need a word for. It is a group of people with absolutely nothing in common, which there is no reason for anyone to ever need to collectively refer to.

But thats the crux of the issue. So its really quite ridiculous to say that transwomen or transmen (MN doesnt care about them) needs to find their own word, because thats the whole point!

And you are continuing to resort to personal attacks.

Says the person who called me transphobic.

I will be scrolling past all of your subsquent posts so I wouldn't waste your time.

They need to get their own words rather than forcing people to share a gender identity with them when most of us in fact don't.

Please show me where I have called you or anyone transphobic?

And again, you are directly calling a fellow mumsnetter transphobic and bigoted. And directly implying that people supporting her are also transphobic and bigoted.

Baby-
at the start of this debate, a long time ago, I was totally pro trans and anti a certain type of feminist.

Reading things on here made me shift zone sligthly, I wanted compromise.

I didn't like the unkindness - hence why I dont like Maya, and I didnt like the mocking threads.

But I read threads about shared spaces, and prisons, and the one that stuck with me was about women having to share rape sessions.

I have told you I stand with you on that, and you've basically told me I can't, and that it's all or nothing.

I'm not willing to give all, particularly not to someone who wont accept me, so I guess its nothing.

Sad really. But an example in practice of why we won't see this resolved in our lifetime.

Perhaps you misread where I said I would be ignoring all subsequent posts. You were being oh so clever, so stand by it. Not interested.

Right, so what language can we use to distinguish between the people who should be allowed into a single sex rape therapy group and the people who shouldn't?

The words "woman" and "female" are now both used to include male people.

So, you are not going to point to the post where I supposedly said you, personally, were transphobic?

But you will accuse me of it, while calling others transphobic, bigoted and more.

Can you not see the hypocrisy in it?

So, you are not going to point to the post where I supposedly said you, personally, were transphobic?

Lol, the word "transphobic" has been used 170 times and counting in this thread, most of them by @beautyisthefaceiseeherself.

The words "needle" and "haystack" spring to mind.

I’d be laughing, but I would like this poster to actually start reading and doing their research rather than calling people bigots and transphobes, and making false accusations and personal attacks.

Something they have form for across numerous threads now.

One last thought experiment, @beautyisthefaceisee, then I'm off to bed.

Let's say we all agree that "female" and "male" are gender identities, and "women" are people with female gender identities and "men" are people with male gender identities.

Let's say that we also agree that we need words for the two biological sexes, and since we don't currently have words for these things, we will say that "flips" are people of the childbearing sex - whether they actually bear children or not - and "flops" are people of the sperm producing sex.

It bears noting that "women" and "men" combined will not add up to 100% of the population, as not everyone has a gender identity, and some people who have gender identities believe they are neither a woman nor a man.

"Flips" and "flops" combined, on the other hand, will add up to 100% of the population, since everyone is one or the other, and nobody is both or neither.

Based on what you've said above, it seems you would support having single sex spaces such as prisons and rape therapy groups, and single sex sports, for, respectively "flips" and "flops". Let's say you also accept that sometimes it will be useful to refer to "flips" and "flops" in a medical context, for example, "flips" may need antenatal care, an abortion or cervical screening, whereas "flops" may be interested in vasectomies or need prostate exams.

Once you've dealt with those things, in what circumstances do you think you will ever need to refer to "women" or "men"? Once biological sex is removed from the equation and these are purely identities, when do you actually need to use these words?

I thought I'd already explained how internet forums work.

'Meltdown'.

A disastrous collapse or breakdown.

Hope that helps.

The trans lobby seeks to erode women’s rights—in their protected spaces— in an utterly misogynistic way. This pronoun BS is just a way to make their misogyny more acceptable by making “misgendering” a politeness issue.

referring to other threads is against MN etiquette and something they take a dim view of.
I don't have to do any research - just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm less educated, or informed.

It just means I disagree.

well, this thread has been, erm - interesting!

I can’t decide if it’s DARVO on steroids or a new “let’s be reasonable”-type DARVO.

Not going to lie, it’s a fairly clever tactic, especially as this is in AIBU rather than elsewhere. VERY easy to drop in various claims, sounding genuine, which people new to the topic might take in without realising.

Its strange how it’s agreed that women need safe spaces (rape counselling, prison, sports, etc), but that we’re all transphobic anyway. Whilst really not getting that, by stating those caveats, they are being transphobic themselves according to the almighty lobby group etc.

I CBA to go back through 36 pages, but the general gist of the argument seems to be (as usual) that this whole mess is the fault of women saying “no”. Fuck that for a game of soldiers. Am getting fed up of the whole “look what you made me do” narrative.

Its been said time and time again elsewhere on here - women will fully support the trans community in campaigning for safer EVERYTHING (rights, spaces, healthcare, workplace etc etc etc). But NOT at the expense of those rights for adult human females. The needs of both are different - the sooner this is accepted, the sooner things can hopefully progress. And this COULD be helped massively by the institution that tried to shove #NoDebate down our throats . However, the day they actually engage properly will be the day I buy a lottery ticket. In the meantime women, children and the trans community lose out.

Another couple of random points:

The nested quote function is making reading threads an absolute PITA.

I take less notice of the points someone is making when they are consistently patronising and goady to someone. This has happened throughout this thread and it’s not a good look if one is wanting to get a point across.

I think refusing to read the facts about something and someone where you are demonising a person, a fellow mumsnetter, the way you have here means you have to accept that yes, you are less informed about that topic.

It is quite something to attempt to deny it.

And not one person has said you cannot hold your opinions.

However, this is a discussion forum on the internet and people are free to point out that those opinions have no factual basis, are borne from prejudice rather than specific knowledge. That they lack credibility and that you have resorted to further personal attacks when others point it out.

Lastly, for those who make it this far in the thread.

Why on earth would someone have ZERO interest in reading anything about the judgement on the Maya case. Yet be happy to state, numerous times, what type of person she is, what her job prospects are now, etc?

How can anything else posted be taken seriously - if they are happy to state this shite without having the knowledge of what occurred and what the judgement was?

It boils down, essentially, to the view that “she did a bad thing”. No context, no insight. The same as other women in the news who have done the same. Basically, it’s the fault of women that we are in this mess - according to some people who do not realise that they are essentially imparting the viewpoints of a group of people that they say they don’t want to be associated with.