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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

916 replies

landantan · 30/06/2022 15:37

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 07/07/2022 21:55

Furries

Yes.

Helleofabore · 07/07/2022 22:00

Furries · 07/07/2022 21:52

Lastly, for those who make it this far in the thread.

Why on earth would someone have ZERO interest in reading anything about the judgement on the Maya case. Yet be happy to state, numerous times, what type of person she is, what her job prospects are now, etc?

How can anything else posted be taken seriously - if they are happy to state this shite without having the knowledge of what occurred and what the judgement was?

It boils down, essentially, to the view that “she did a bad thing”. No context, no insight. The same as other women in the news who have done the same. Basically, it’s the fault of women that we are in this mess - according to some people who do not realise that they are essentially imparting the viewpoints of a group of people that they say they don’t want to be associated with.

Except the last part.

I believe you are referring to the tactics that extremist trans activists use, with your final sentence. And I think it could be said that some posters who use those tactics DO want to be associated with those who also use those tactics.

Furries · 07/07/2022 22:14

Helleofabore · 07/07/2022 22:00

Except the last part.

I believe you are referring to the tactics that extremist trans activists use, with your final sentence. And I think it could be said that some posters who use those tactics DO want to be associated with those who also use those tactics.

Absolutely, spot on. But the poster I’m referring to has vehemently argued that they are NOT aligned with that group of people (and has said rhey will report those that say so).

I think I was trying to get my point across while trying to sound impartial. Net result is a) I’m not good at doing that and b) I should really just call it out!

babyjellyfish · 08/07/2022 08:38

@beautyisthefaceisee Do you have any views about my post from the night before last? The thought experiment?

Teateaandmoretea · 08/07/2022 08:51

My objection is I don’t identify as any gender. I don’t think we should be forced into doing so.

I am quite happy for people to refer to me as they see it. Not that anyone has ever got my biological sex wrong.

Teateaandmoretea · 08/07/2022 08:52

I have not accused you of being transphobic, I have stated that to discount their experiences would be transphobic. If you are discounting their experiences, maybe you need to think why and if you are transphobic.

Discounting the experiences of biological women is absolutely fine though.

babyjellyfish · 08/07/2022 08:55

I don't even understand what "discounting their experiences" means.

What do we actually need to do in order to not "discount their experiences"? Believe that male people can be women because that's how they feel? Sorry, no. Their experiences are personal to them and don't fundamentally change the nature of what a woman is.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 08/07/2022 09:18

But the poster I’m referring to has vehemently argued that they are NOT aligned with that group of people (and has said rhey will report those that say so).

I don’t really understand the issue with TRA, I appreciate that there are extremes and that it can be used in a disparaging way on this board

but it just means someone who campaigns for trans rights…i mean thats not a bad thing

surely womans rights activist would be the same sort of thing

so even if you don’t actually campaign then I don’t understand why someone would be upset enough to report it,

Teateaandmoretea · 08/07/2022 09:19

It is black and white though.

Either trans women are women or they aren't. They aren't.

Either trans men are men or they aren't. They aren't.

Either being a woman is a feeling in someone's head or it is a biological reality. It is a biological reality.

I don’t actually agree with this. A lot of the black and white argument is around dictionary definition of the word ‘woman’.

Language evolves so that the same word can have more than one definition. So ‘woman’ can be ‘adult human female’ and ‘person who identifies as female gender’. As separate definitions.

They can shove ‘cis’ literally where the sun don’t shine but if enough people identify with genders and believe in it then quite simply trans women are women. Just according to definition 1 not 2. The reality is that no one owns language or specific words.

Teateaandmoretea · 08/07/2022 09:20

Definition 2 not 1 ….

Helleofabore · 08/07/2022 09:39

Teateaandmoretea · 08/07/2022 08:52

I have not accused you of being transphobic, I have stated that to discount their experiences would be transphobic. If you are discounting their experiences, maybe you need to think why and if you are transphobic.

Discounting the experiences of biological women is absolutely fine though.

No. I did not say that at all. And if you read my posts, you would understand that I would never say that at all.

I wrote that quote you have selected in response to this:

Other than those on twitter, and those mythical ones that hide in bathrooms, or that one the other day about the missing "woman" - MTF is sensationalist headlines and for me, that takes away from real people.

This poster was telling us that ‘MTF’ (their term) trans people are ‘rare’ . And that somehow, to PP, the sensationalist headlines ‘takes away from real people’. The implication being that transitioned males who cause those sensational headlines are not as real as other trans people.

My point is two fold. One, we are told to accept people are who they say they are and therefore it would be considered transphobic to judge and reject who is and isn’t trans based on your own definition.

Secondly, an obvious transphobic action, if that is in fact what that poster is doing, makes their constant repeated attacks on others for being transphobic yet another hypocritical act.

babyjellyfish · 08/07/2022 09:48

Teateaandmoretea · 08/07/2022 09:19

It is black and white though.

Either trans women are women or they aren't. They aren't.

Either trans men are men or they aren't. They aren't.

Either being a woman is a feeling in someone's head or it is a biological reality. It is a biological reality.

I don’t actually agree with this. A lot of the black and white argument is around dictionary definition of the word ‘woman’.

Language evolves so that the same word can have more than one definition. So ‘woman’ can be ‘adult human female’ and ‘person who identifies as female gender’. As separate definitions.

They can shove ‘cis’ literally where the sun don’t shine but if enough people identify with genders and believe in it then quite simply trans women are women. Just according to definition 1 not 2. The reality is that no one owns language or specific words.

But this isn't the natural evolution of language.

This is the very recent insistence by a single interest lobby group that a word that has been used for over a thousand years to mean "adult human female" now includes its opposite.

There is no such thing as the "female gender". If there were, someone would be able to explain what the fuck it is.

babyjellyfish · 08/07/2022 09:50

I'm going to repost my thought experiement from the other night.

@beautyisthefaceisee hasn't responded, but perhaps you might, @Teateaandmoretea.

Let's say we all agree that "female" and "male" are gender identities, and "women" are people with female gender identities and "men" are people with male gender identities.

Let's say that we also agree that we need words for the two biological sexes, and since we don't currently have words for these things, we will say that "flips" are people of the childbearing sex - whether they actually bear children or not - and "flops" are people of the sperm producing sex.

It bears noting that "women" and "men" combined will not add up to 100% of the population, as not everyone has a gender identity, and some people who have gender identities believe they are neither a woman nor a man.

"Flips" and "flops" combined, on the other hand, will add up to 100% of the population, since everyone is one or the other, and nobody is both or neither.

Based on what@beautyisthefaceisee has said above, it seems she would support having single sex spaces such as prisons and rape therapy groups, and single sex sports, for, respectively "flips" and "flops". Let's say we also accept that sometimes it will be useful to refer to "flips" and "flops" in a medical context, for example, "flips" may need antenatal care, an abortion or cervical screening, whereas "flops" may be interested in vasectomies or need prostate exams.

Once you've dealt with those things, in what circumstances do you think you will ever need to refer to "women" or "men"? Once biological sex is removed from the equation and these are purely identities, when do you actually need to use these words?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 08/07/2022 17:59

I don’t actually agree with this. A lot of the black and white argument is around dictionary definition of the word ‘woman’.

Language evolves so that the same word can have more than one definition. So ‘woman’ can be ‘adult human female’ and ‘person who identifies as female gender’. As separate definitions.

I agree with you and I don't.

I agree that language means whatever we collectively use it to mean and that can and does change.

I don't agree that the black and white argument is simply a difference of agreement around dictionary definition of the word ‘woman’.

If Woman had always been an identity alone, a way of expressing an inner knowledge about oneself and the group to which one feels kinship in the same way that, for example, "goth" or "Scouser" or "intellectual" is, there would be very little concern if that meaning changed over time. The definition of Goth does not need to be black or white because no formal or social protections or rights exist that are specific to Goths. That doesn't mean there are not Goths, just that it's fine to determine it on the fly in contexts where Goth or Not, or Goth Enough, matter - bouncers at goth nights, goth subreddits and so on - and the definition can be fluid and change between individuals, in different contexts or over time.

The black and white argument is being made in the case of Woman because, IF indeed the language has changed, there are rights, protections and opportunities, whether formal/legal or through the social contract, that pre-exist this change. These pre-existing provisions should not be assumed to apply to changed meaning simply because of what is essentially a coincidence of language, that a word that used to mean adult human of the female sex now also, or instead, means something else.

That is the reason for appeals to authority in the form of the dictionary. The new meaning of the word under which access to these provisions is being demanded is not the same as the meaning of the word under which they were set up.

Forget the word Woman for now. We have group A (the people the word Woman originally meant, and the people for who these provisions were made). We have group B, the people who the word Woman (arguably) now means. There may be some overlap in the groups, but without the word Woman there is no argument to say that the provisions of Group A are rightly also due to Group B.

Without the word Woman there is no case, and that is why the meaning of the word Woman is important and cannot be left to personal choice.

That is not to say there could never be an argument to open them up. There are plenty of examples where a succesful argument has been that the provisions for one group should be open to another, or to all. But those arguments need to be made openly and honestly, and include whether the provisions themselves need to change as well. There is no logical or indeed moral basis whatsoever for one group having a legitimate claim to the provisions of another simply by claiming the same name.

(I have not considered here whether this really is an authentic change in how the population is using these words or an inauthentic one being pushed into the population by pressure groups and threat of social/legal punishments because my argument stands in either case. It doesn't rest on the validity of the change in language itself but on the validity of what is being claimed on top of it)

Helleofabore · 08/07/2022 19:40

I expect babyjelly, your attempt will remain untouched. The need is clear, but the clanging of dissonance is going to be far too loud to get an answer.

Teateaandmoretea · 09/07/2022 07:11

The black and white argument is being made in the case of Woman because, IF indeed the language has changed, there are rights, protections and opportunities, whether formal/legal or through the social contract, that pre-exist this change. These pre-existing provisions should not be assumed to apply to changed meaning simply because of what is essentially a coincidence of language, that a word that used to mean adult human of the female sex now also, or instead, means something else.

^^completely agree with this. The black/white argument actually detracts from this key point imo.

The thing is that the vast majority of people in the population do not reject gender as a concept. We get lots of ‘men are like x’; ‘women are like y’ bullshit pretty much constantly.

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