To be shocked that in the 21st century there's still a staggering amount of women who rely entirely on their husbands?

[EllieRosesMammy]

I see it far too often on MN, women saying their husbands have been cheating on them for years or treating them absolutely terribly, but saying they can't leave because they are entirely financially dependent on their husbands.

Is it just me who finds this mad in 2022? Or is it still normal for men to be 100% the provider of the household?

I just couldn't imagine being stuck in a rubbish situation simply because of money

I am absolutely in no way slating stay at home mums, or house wives here either. I just believe all women should be self sufficient enough that if they're in a bad situation they can walk away

I said ideally no one would be a sahm. Not sahp. or that it would be an equal choice for men and women

But every persons situation will not be the same, you couldn't put these resolutions into practice as a valid change. Why should you then be forcing people into the workplace who have another option that their family unit are happy with do you think that it will help with their mental health?
Do you think it will make them be a good parent when they are at home?
Do you think it will make them a productive employee whilst at work?

And of course wp still parent. But there's no denying that having a sahm often allows men to advance their careers while removing women from the workforce completely

No, you were talking about raising children to know about parental responsibility, being a SAHP has no impact on that.

Why are you not here shouting about other factors that encourage or decide a SAHM decision, better more flexible workplaces, cheaper childcare options.
People wont make their families worse off while the other factors catch up, changes need to be made to make working a financially viable choices, for so many, it simply isnt.

It reinforces and entrenches the idea that child care is solely a womans job

It teaches young girls that they should not follow what others try to force on to them and that they can make their own choices, providing they are informed ones.
Do you not see by saying all women must work, that is then dragging women back by taking choices away from them.
Working parents also do childcare, so this doesnt work either, surely you dont believe a working parents is passing over sole childcare responsibilities to someone else as you are suggesting that by saying a SAHM is adopting childcare as their sole responsibility?

If that's how you want to live and raise your kids then that's up to you. I'm literally not stopping anyone

But you are judging people negatively and trying to drag them down for their choices.
Its ok to say you dont agree with anothers choices for yourself, but not try and belittle others for their choices.

@tiggergoesbounce

I'm not forcing anyone to work. I've repeatedly said that no one can or should be. If you dont want to work, don't.

Being a sahm does impact on how your children view parental responsibility. All the research shows this. It absolutely teaches kids that the norm is mum at home dad at work.

I'm not shouting about anything. People have asked for my views, I've shared them. I totally support better parental leave. Better and more subsidised childcare option. More flexible working options for men.

You can be all offended all you like. But the stats and research back up what I'm saying. If you feel belittled by me saying we should be aiming for a more equal society where men take as much responsibility for their children as women do and where girls and women have genuine choices and not just the ones you approve of then that's on you.

Depends what you call a lot.

Unless you have twins, most people are only paying two sets of nursery fees for a year, max. Lots of people I know - myself included - time their trying for a baby to make sure one is getting subsidised nursery or at school before the second arrives.

After school club is usually much more affordable (although there are many who still can't afford it so use GPs, friends or relatives instead). Our childcare bills have gone from over £1000 a month to £160.

This sounds like a dream situation. Can I ask what you both do for work?

So true. 8 of my good friends (late 30s/early 40s) are SAHMs with zero career history, pension, independence.

I really don’t know what they were thinking getting into this set up. They’re entirely unemployable at the moment.

1 of my friends is chronically unhappy with her marriage and husband. She’s been complaining vociferously about the whole set up for the past 13 years and has done nothing to get herself out of the hole she’s in!! I’m 100% sure the husband is having an affair (and I don’t necessarily blame him, as my friend can be unbearable at times and literally hates him and belittles him in front of our group). So sad.

If, as of today, you wiped out the history of the patriarchy and everyone started with a 100% clear consciousness going forwards, there would still not be 'equality' as you envisage it TopGub. This is because, at a population level, women would instinctively gravitate towards being available for their children to a greater extent than men. Yes men and women are equal because we are all humans. But in this respect, broadly speaking, we are wired differently. When men start to give birth, then your theory may be realistic.. But don't see that coming any day soon.

i don't see any practical ideas from you beyond "get rid of the SAHMs" about how workplaces can be made more flexible to encourage real choice?

But yes, even where there is real choice, more women than men will still choose to be with their children if this is financially viable. They will do this to a greater degree than men because, as the childbearing sex, they are wired differently in this respect.

Men and women are far more similar than they are different. I don't dispute that for a second.But childbirth / nurturing is one area where, at a population level (not individual) there are distinct differences.

So is it not better to just accept theese difference and realise that you may have to start thinking about equality differently? Because your vision of equality (women and men responding to childbirth in the same way) is a non-starter.

Not really. I would earn too much to qualify for tax credits but we live in London and my wage and half the equity from our house might afford me a two bed flat in a cheaper area. I would be very very reluctant to make my three children who are used to having their own bedrooms live in a two bed flat in an area away from their friends, schools, nurseries. Which would mean that I would be very likely to stay in my marriage in less than ideal circumstances. I don't think I would be in a significantly different position than a sahm.

Like many PP here I did not think I had a choice. I looked at finances and decided what was necessary and what could be done without. I dumped the cocklodger husband, I kept the house which was mine anyway, the car which was also mine, the DC.
I am doing just fine but the cocklodger is on benefits and still trying to con everyone
I set my bar higher than to tolerate a waste of space man. Ladies you can do more than you think.

Being a SAHM was much more important to me than being financially independent and having a job, it's by far the best thing I've ever done and was pretty much vital for my ds with SEN. I don't regret it for one minute and have never enjoyed working full time. I don't understand how someone could work full time through their child's younger years but it's not up to me to judge them no more than it is for others to judge my decision to not remain financially independent because they couldn't imagine not working.

Anyone can leave any situation if they really want, and often there's more than just money keeping people in abusive situations. Things are generally much, much more complex than that IMO even if that is the reason given by people on here. Many people don't recognise for example that they have low self esteem, depression, anxiety and/or poor boundaries because that is their normal.

I also think when you have children with someone the wrench to break up that family even if it's caused by someone else's bad behaviour is really difficult, same goes for if you've been with someone for 20 years and they are pretty much all you've known. Things are just generally far more complex IMO than, 'I'm staying for the money'.

@limemintice

Is your oh not available to his children?

In your opinion women are 'wired' differently. In mine they're taught differently.

Imo working doesn't mean you're not available to your children

@Staynow

Who are you financially reliant on?

@tiggergoesbounce
Topgub will continue to argue that SAHM shouldn't exist, because she doesn't want them to. There hasn't been any other argument as to why, as nothing has been backed up.

From what I gather, myself and Topgub both work (worked in my case) for the same organisation. After my first mat leave I took a career break. I now have 3 children and still don't intend to return. I don't need to work for financial gain, for adult company, a sense of purpose or to prove a point to my children. They know men and women work, although they only care for role playing purposes at this stage.
If I had to work for any reason, I would.

Topgub wants to remove a woman's right to choose to stay at home to raise her children. She makes derogatory assumptions about mum's who chose to do this.

Myself and my OH are at home together 7 days a week. The household responsibilities mainly lie with me, the work responsibilities are his. As his work is flexible parenting is shared. We value education, manners, kindness, independence and respect. That's how our children are raised. If our circumstances change I would be grateful that I've had the opportunity to be at home.
It's not why we're SAHM's that gets Topgubs back up, it's that we're SAHM's.

@Foxgluv

If you value manners you'll know its rude to speak about people to others as though they're not there.

Its also rude to say you know what they're thinking better than they do. Especially when you're making stuff up.

Keep the hollow responses coming Topgub.

So much judgement on this thread. It’s all about choice and personal circumstances, you can not decide what is right for others.

@Foxgluv

Like your hollow accusations of jealousy?

🤣

TopGub - of course my husband is available to his children? Why do you keep chanting this? He is an equal parent to me. But in terms of time spent with them when they were little, I did more of that. Better me than a nanny - in OUR opinion.

You talk as if everyone has jobs where they can realistically just work 37 hours a week. What planet are you on really?

It's not about SAHM v WOHM actually. It's about income differential within a marriage, as 3WildOnes has already explained.

Rather than blaming SAHMs as the woe of all evil, why don't you ask why it's basically only bankers and particular city type professions that earn the sort of money to buy houses in parts of London where a one bed flat over a shop will set you back £500k and a house will be £5m upwards? Who do you think is living in these areas? It's not the people who were born around here. It's not people who work fixed or 'normal' hours, even for salaries that would enable a good lifestyle in other parts of the U.K.

If I look at my own children, if they are earning say, £50k, even £100k as young adults they will struggle to get on the property ladder around here unless we help them.

So in terms of SAHMs around here being 'trapped' because they don't earn 'their own money', even if they earned what would be considered a good salary in national terms, they would still feel just as trapped if they wanted to leave because you won't get a flat on that money. They would still have to move out quite far. Still struggle and disrupt their kids schools. Is it any wonder then, they at a certain point, women in this kind of set up stop thinking about the implications of salary in terms of 'financial security.' That ship has sailed. If you're thinking about your financial security, you would be looking at assets - how much you would receive from half of the house, etc etc. This could be a lot. Which is why there are so many SAHMs in particular areas - they don't feel financially vulnerable because they are not and having a job would make little difference.

And there is no way you can say to a husband (or wife) in certain jobs who needs to travel a lot or work as and when they need to - "Oh just do a 37 hour week please, thanks!" Are you joking? I'd like to see you try that.

Topgub it is you who uses terms like 'jealous' and 'SAHM being the ideal' it has little to no impact on me if you are jealous.

The sexist argument has continuously been debunked. This hatred you have is only affecting you.

Are you in a caring role within the NHS? You've been derogatory towards SAHM and now you've added religion to that. How do you treat patients who are SAHM or religious?

@Foxgluv

You're the one who keeps implying jealousy. Although I've no idea why.

You haven't debunked anything. Just whined that you're choice is being removed even though it hasn't.

I dont hate anyone. I'm not sure why you're so determined to make it into something its not.

@limemintice

Yes, wealth inequality disproportionately affects women. Because of sexism

But you seemed pretty pissed off by views of higher earners that you surmised from another thread. So I'm sure you already know how I think that should be addressed.

I would've been happy to be a SAHD but my wife wanted it more than me. It was her dream to be a SAHM and she loved every minute of being at home with the kids. I consider it a luxury that just isn't a viable option for many nowadays (due to cost of living, house prices etc).

Sounds like a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't though.

I would be considered a tyrant if I'd said no to her being a SAHM due to equality and that she needed to go out to work etc. Other than her resenting me, I don't see how this would actually solve much, other than to cause a rift. So our kids may well have seen two equal parents but two that didn't get on. Nice.

Instead they see two loving parents who may not do things 50/50 but that respect each other and have an equal relationship despite the differences in work/salaries.

It has, you're choosing to be ignorant.
When I took my career break it left the door open for another woman to take my position. I can be posted in another place if I choose to go back. My OH working less wouldn't open the door for another woman because of his line of work.

I don't know or care if you're jealous, that only affects you. I do think you think it's unfair. I think it's unfair, but there are worse things in life that are unfair. If you are in a caring role then I'm sure you'll have seen this.

You avoid questions but continue these audacious responses, going round and circles.

You're overly invested in a mum full time parenting. Let that sink in, a mum looking after her children.

There will be many complex reasons why it tends to be men that are over-represented in city banking-type jobs. It's far too simplistic to just say "sexism."

If I'd wanted to pursue that type of work - what was actually stopping me?

OK, maybe you might argue I was conditioned from birth and internalised that kind of work is 'not for girls.' It's possible. Sure. But you could argue that social conditioning is to blame for pretty much anything. The fact is, if I'd wanted to do that type of work, there was nothing physically stopping me. If I'd been more STEM / business orientated at school, nothing was stopping me pursuing that. I'm not going to spend my life second guessing why I was drawn to the type of work I was drawn to. I'm not going to blame the patriarchy for the fact I mainly worked un the public sector. Far better to just take responsibility and own your choices, rather than blaming people who have the interest, qualities and stamina to pursue other professions that might be more lucrative. There will always be people who make more money - such is life and always has been.

@foxgluv

Youve repeatedly implied I hold my views because I'm jealous, bitter, annoyed that women are sahms despite having no basis for it.

Now you're saying I think its unfair that some women are sahms? Unfair to who?

Their ohs? Possibly.

But not other women.

I'm not any more invested than anyone else. You're commenting too. Are you overly invested in being annoyed at my views?

@Topgub
im not forcing anyone to work. Ive repeatedly said that noone can or should be. If you dont want to work dont

But your ideology that SAHM's shouldn't be thing, does mean you think they should be forced to work.
You are now saying you are indifferent to people who wish to stay at home, thats sounds very different from your original posts who was demonising them for their choices.

being a stay at home mum does impact how your children view parental responsibility

You have said this before but cant explain how?
Unless you think by being at home and not working makes that person be more of a parent it doesnt make sense. Which of course they are not.

A SAHM (as you seem ok with SAHD) has exactly the same parental responsibility as a working parent. That does not diminish because one gets a pay cheque.

all research shows this

No, it doesn't. Some might and some wont, you can get research that backs most arguments, even the most ludicrous.

Are you saying all working parents need to adapt as research shows they are not taking on their parental responsibility to their child. Rubbish.

you can be all offended all you like

Im not offended by your opinion, i find it deluded. Im quite ok with people having different views than myself and saying they couldn't have lived my life. Im not ok with someone trying to make a whole group of women feel less because of their informed choices or need to keep their family afloat.

the stats back up what im saying
No it doesn't.

if you feel belittled by me saying we should aim for a more equal society where men take up as much responsibility for their children as women do and where girls and women have genuine choices and not just ones you approve of then thats on you

Men can take responsibility for their children and work, the same as women take responsibility and work. Stop repeating the same meaningless statement. Yes men should do their share at home and be everything else with their child. A SAHM doesnt change that.
It is a stand alone statement "men should take responsibility for their children" dont then put that back on women and relating it to SAHM. A man is responsible for his own actions, i wont take responsibility for that in 2022!!

But youare degrading womens choices with your attitude. I am promoting choice in girls and women not trying to drag them down when i dont agree with them, like you have done.

There is so much back peddling in your last post its crazy.

@limemintice 👏👏 you are completely right on that post.