To think people these days are not prepared to make marriage work?

[HipsterMum]

Most of my friends have gone or are currently going through divorce/separation. Some of them have got children some don't but most of them are not separating because of any 'big' issues (cheating/abuse/alcoholism etc). It seems that people reach a stage in their marriages when they cannot be bothered to fight for it anymore at least this seems to be the case from the experience of my friends and colleagues.

I frequently get annoyed with my husband over small things and that can often lead to big arguments but I always thought that these things are normal when you live with someone 24/7 and you both experience the best and the worst of this life together side by side. Many of my friends tell me that they just want to be able to enjoy fun things with their partner and are tired of problems that come with the marriage.

AIBU to think that you truly cannot have a carefree marriage/relationship and that sometimes people give up too easily?

P.S I don't really think there is right or wrong answer to that and that every situation is different but just wanted to hear opinions on that.

@ForestFae I don't see the problem with not wanting commitment, wanting casual sex and being OK with non-exclusivity - as long as everyone involved is open, honest and consenting about what is on offer. Monogamy is by no means the only game in town and there is nothing wrong with that at all.

There are generational differences in views on casual sex/ monogamy and I think it’s mostly driven by environment.

My mother was a free love hippie and although she married, she had several affairs. But this was in an era where there was easy access to the BC pill and STIs were mostly curable, certainly wouldn’t kill you.

I was a teen at the dawn of the AIDS crisis and it persisted well into my 20s. My generation is a bit “prudish” because when we were teens/young adults HIV was a 1 in 4 chance of catching it every time you had sex with a new partner and at the time, HIV was a death sentence. Also at the time, the thought was that condoms didn’t prevent transmission. For a few years they even thought kissing/oral sex could transmit HIV (hence all the water fountains being ripped out of public areas). So my generation was more cautious and gravitated towards monogamy and less casual sex.

But the generations after me, and even now because AIDS isn’t a killer anymore they are back in that era that my mother was in of great contraception and no STIs that will kill you…mostly curable…and the stigma of herpes etc is much less. So it’s no wonder that more casual sex abounds and fewer young people today are gravitating towards monogamy. It’s because they can more freely choose what they personally prefer.

I agree to a point, I have no issue with consensual polyamory but people seem to glorify cheating or playing games with people and I take issue with that

In my view, it's not divorce that is too easy, but marriage. The assumption is that proposals and marriages are good and happy things, but too few couples really think through the implications of the fact that they are entering into a legally binding contract with another individual, and that they ought to do all the same due diligence that they would do if that contract concerned a business or a property.

I think attendance at a briefing session by the registrar's office or the CAB or similar should be a requirement of getting a marriage licence, both about the administrative realities of marriage and about the personal implications of tethering your ups and downs to another individual. I also think prenups should be a requirement of entering into a marriage contract, so that there was no 'unromantic' stigma attached to them. Couples should make a full declaration of assets, liabilities and financial arrangements regarding children from previous relationships. Too many people, just using MN threads as a snapshot, seem to have no idea of the answers to some of these questions.

If this seems like a right load of faff, try disentangling a relationship with children and joint finances when none of it has ever been thought about previously. What I'm suggesting is simpler, and hopefully a lot less emotionally loaded at the beginning than it is at the end (or at least the emotions are more positive anyway). I also think that when an unmarried couple has children, the same kind of process should follow the registering of the birth, even though the legal undertakings would take a different form than that of a marriage contract.

I think a lot of people probably wouldn't get as far as the altar if you had to do all of that, and it would save people a lot of heartache. The 'love and romance' culture (aka industry) has a lot to answer for imo.

"Much" of a cheater or alcoholic? "Especially" physically violent?

And yes, being constantly shut down is miserable living.

Marriage is no longer what it was, people have higher expectations of how happy they should be and don't regard marriage vows as a barrier to splitting up. As long as nobody else is affected, surely it is their choice about how to be happy and whether to feel bound by promises they have made.

I would always put children first in the decision if there is no abuse going on, but growing up in a household where parents are sniping at each other is probably worse than having divorced parents.

Interesting theory! I think contraception and STIs being curable will have an impact. I wonder if the arrival of things like “super gonhorrea” which is resistant to most antibx will have a similar effect.

In my view, it's not divorce that is too easy, but marriage. The assumption is that proposals and marriages are good and happy things, but too few couples really think through the implications of the fact that they are entering into a legally binding contract with another individual.

I agree with this, but I don’t think people should be forced into pre nups and briefings.

I agree. Somebody told me some friends of her were divorcing because 'they weren't getting on'. People expect too much. And there are a lot of folk who make out they have married Mr or Mrs Wonderful and in reality they haven't, and it leads to other folk feeling dissatisfied.

People change. Things that were once endearing could now be an annoyance, which sometimes leads to other gripes and all built up it gets too much. As you get older some are less tolerant. I do think in some cases if neither of you is at fault and you just grow apart then unfortunately that's life.... why stay with someone who you're unhappy with. Children are better in a happy home, whether that be with one parent or two. There's no right answer but you both have to be on the same page.

We agree then - those things do not come under open, honest and consenting.

But as a single woman who only just missed being divorced (he died 12 days before the Nisi was pronounced) I really feel that a lot of it is to do with women no longer accepting shitty relationships and shitty lives, and being far happier single. I certainly am.

but whats wrong with those things?

I think this is a great post, but compulsory prenupts defeat the object of marriage somewhat. They can prevent the lower earner being fairly compensated for making a greater non-financial contribution such as child rearing and homemaking.

‘Weren’t getting on’ is an ‘I don’t want to discuss it with you’ reason. After all, nobody is going to tell you ‘Frank could only get it up if I watched hardcore porn with him and while hitting him with a fish slice’

Consensual polyamory, nothing is wrong with it. However, glorifying lying, cheating, and generally being a shitty partner isn’t great, and it also makes things difficult for people who don’t want to engage in things like that. My DH for example, used to believe that barely anyone was as monogamous anymore and everyone had affairs due to constantly having stuff like this thrown in his face by society (DH has never and never will engaged in anything like that, neither have I).

Everyone has their own bar of what they’ll put up with.

Back in the day divorce was frowned upon so it wasn’t an easy option.

Nowadays it is an easy option but I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

Personally I think being happy is much more important than staying married.
I do not believe in rushing into a marriage for that very reason and believe people should live with each other for a couple of years to see if they’re compatible or not.

Arguments/disagreements are bound to happen but they shouldn’t be a regular thing and a partner is meant to enhance your life not make it more stressful.

I am single and I happy 90% of the time.
If someone came along and made me even happier then great - I would happily be in a committed relationship.
But if someone came along and made my life harder and more stressful - then I don’t see the point in being with that person and I wouldn’t be with them.
The same goes for if I was already married - if I would be happier single, then I might as well be single.

@ForestFae
Im curious about super gonorrhoea as well. Thank you for the compliment, it is very interesting to look at behaviour and then think about, why are young people doing x, y, z. It’s not always due to immorality or morality. My generations attitude towards casual sex was completely and deeply affected by the AIDS pandemic and crisis. We didn’t avoid casual sex because we were somehow morally superior or Handmaids of the patriarchy or conservative/traditionalists…it was purely a matter of avoiding risk of an early death.

Very true. Both my sets of grandparents had utterly wretched marriages. My paternal grandmother was a screeching, self-pitying monster who made her husband's life a misery. And my maternal grandmother was driven to a breakdown by living with my grandfather. In those days, however, you just stuck it out.

Evolution meant us to reproduce at 15 and be dead by 25 or 30. We certainly didn't evolve to share a brick box with someone for 50 odd years. Frankly, it's a miracle any marriage survives!

My DH for example, used to believe that barely anyone was as monogamous anymore and everyone had affairs due to constantly having stuff like this thrown in his face by society (DH has never and never will engaged in anything like that, neither have I).

And you managed to find each other. Do you really not know many other monogamous couples?

How is he having this stuff thrown in his face? What exactly is happening to offend him?

I know I’d find it worrying if I were a single person today! It absolutely makes sense that AIDS had a massive influence on peoples attitudes, it must’ve been very scary to live through.

Yes, we did luckily.

He has siblings who are into the clubbing life and engage in such behaviours, and his parents had an acrimonious divorce when he was young. As a result, he’s very much pro marriage, marriage is for life, you don’t fuck around etc.

But his siblings are allowed to go clubbing and have consensual casual sex. How are they throwing it in his face?

Sounds like they're also reacting to their parents' crap marriage. Why was the divorce acrimonious? Did they hold on for too long because they thought they shouldn't divorce?

I get your point, its just that I'm not as convinced this is a 'young person' attitude. I think the difference is young people are doing this without getting married, where as the reality is cheating is an age old problem.

'turning a blind eye', men having mistresses etc etc these things have been going on for generations. Its just they used to happen more often inside marriage and were probably talked about less.

In fact the peak age for infidelity in a relationship is 51-59 years old - that said these statistics are likely to unreliable but still again its not specifically a 'young person' issue

I'm just not prepared to live with a useless man. I gave my first husband 8 years and the 2nd 20 years, neither improved at all, neither were concerned about their family responsibilities and were lazy and childish.
Life is too short.

That’s not the issue, it’s that they cheat on their girlfriends and treat women like shit. Talk about women in degrading terms etc. DH q like it and finds it disrespctful

there are cultural factors at play, DH is Indian and their marriage was arranged.