This picture shows a perfect example of women cast aside because of the patriarchal world we live in

[flashbac]

Winner's podium of an 'inclusive' 'women's' cycling race.
Biological woman is third.

And which race should Jo have entered if she didn't want to compete against males?

These people entered the race on the basis of the rules. The rules were such that anyone of either sex could enter either category. That's what they did.
So they weren't cheating. If you don't like the way the event was run, set up your own
@Badqueen
What I said is that the race organisers were dishonest in implying their races were based on a level playing field of people of 'aligned' physical capabilities, when there appears to have been no way of assessing or enforcing this.

The male competitors especially, it appears, Emily clearly were not competing against a group of people they were physically aligned to according to their racing capabilities. Its debateable whether them entering the race was 'within the rules' - no, they were clearly not 'aligned' with the women, but then no criteria were set for how that was measured.

What I have said, is that this was pretence of a fair race. They could have been honest about it, but they chose not to. If you don't want your race to meet equality principles by having people of similar disadvantage racing together, or people of similar advantage racing together, at least be honest about it. Don't try to pretend that you have set up a fair and equal race. Because its the pretence that shows the political motivation behind the way this race was organised. The motivation was to give the impression that it is fair for males to compete against women and there is no disadvantage to women in doing so.

From my extremely limited understanding the issue is there will be no races for her to enter she doesn’t want to compete against bio males.

there will literally be no opportunity for women to compete against women and for the sports to be elevated accordingly.

Cycling is actually the least of the worries football soccer rugby is more concerning

@Nothappyatwork Quite. That's the point, isn't it? Inclusion actually means intrusion.

Exactly!

Even this - The categories were mixed gender. - suggests, along with having to have performance that "aligns" to the "cis" individuals in that category, that trans identifying females could enter in the women's ("Lightening") category.

Trans identifying males in no respect have performances aligning to this of women.

And using "cis" is an insult!

There is no such thing as "cis" when it applies to people. there are women and girls, and there are men and boys. "Cis" is insulting.

I agree about 'cis'.

It comes to something when we have to redefine what we call biologically sexed humans.

This was a race that previously proactively supported the rights of women in cycling.

A race that promoted true equality - equal billing, equal treatment, equal prizes across the mens and women’s categories.

Until they decided to throw women under the bus in the name of “inclusion” by ditching the setup that actually protects biological women and allows for equality.

They have completely ditched equality in favour of “inclusion”. And the ones who suffer for that are women.

I have no problem at all with there being a trans category race. I would be right there cheering! But women’s sport should not be wiped out by making women compete against those who have the biological advantages of undergoing male puberty.

'Cis' is a horrible, stupid word. No-one knows what it means because no-one can define it without a ridiculous level of circularity. It IS used a slur against women in many contexts, and MNHQ rightly have a view on that.

Why are you appropriating the v rare occurrence of people with differences of sexual development?

This has absolutely nothing to do with transgender identities. They're all either male or female. As are people with vsds incidentally.

You all call for spaces where trans people can compete, someone created one, and that's still not good enough

It wasn't created, it was stolen. The womens race was stolen, by men.

The two available races were 1. Biological men only and 2. Biological woman and any man who wants to compete as a woman.

And OMG this person says some sports body says it's ok to include TW who were on pb from pre teens.

Fucking hell.

Their bones won't be strong enough to cope with the rigours of training and their Hearts will be small.

You all call for spaces where trans people can compete, someone created one, and that's still not good enough

The space for trans people to race is a trans category.

It is not the woman's category that was set up after a hard won fight for woman to have the same opportunities as men in sport.

It's not right to have woman's single sex sport eradicated for the rights of transgender athletes.

Even on the most basic level that sex and gender are not the same thing.

Sex is defined by XY and XX chromosomes.

Gender is defined by an individual deciding they are a man or woman based on a non defined set of gender stereotypes they have self decided exist and self decided make them a male or female.

Actually @CupidStunt22 that’s not true.

The two available races were 1. Biological men only and anyone who wants to compete as a man and .2. Biological woman and anyone who wants to compete as a woman.

The issue is that few if any trans-men would compete against men, and if they did they certainly wouldn’t win, whereas trans-women are far, far more likely to win against women.

But it is true, because everyone in the male race was a biological man. There' aren't ever women trying to race against men, there are only ever men trying to race against women.

It's that it failed to be inclusive or fair.

Emily Bridges competed and won on a mens cycling team recently. Yet was out in a race as aligning like a woman.

Which is it? She cannot be both physically male and female in alignment.

Aside from anything else this should be challenged, and questioned, as the organisers own rules weren't followed.
Baffled that Jo would be ok with that, unless she thought it didn't matter as it was a one-off inclusive event not to be taken seriously, which is patronising at least and does nobody any favours.

@CupidStunt22 I am sorry but that is literally not true. There were trans-men in the Thunder category. They just didn’t place well (unsurprisingly).

I don’t believe in the premise of the race, but let’s not pretend it was worse than what it actual was.

Surely the solution is to have three races, male female and trans. I knew the Germans were on to something with their der, die and das.

@WarriorN
I'm not sure what you think appropriating means but anyway. You seem to have missed the point of her video, Sabine, a world re-renowned physicist, makes some interesting points about sports in general and how body types play such a massive part in outcomes regardless of any trans questions.
Perhaps the TW are just another subset of body type.

I thought the application of some unemotional logic to some key points in this issue to be interesting. Especially if you accept that a solution that is fair to all should be found and if you consider trans people to be the gender that they identify as then what can be done?
Perhaps some kind of weight and height classes need to be determined rather than gender.

@SameSkyDifferentPlanet - did you write this? I think it's excellent!

Perhaps some kind of weight and height classes need to be determined rather than gender.

Like men's boxing, and women's boxing? Yes, I agree, sex-based, with weight classes where appropriate. Doesn't something like that already exist?

I'm confused. Why does the t shirt of the first and second winner say thunder. Are you sure this isn't the thunder category?

a world re-renowned physicist, makes some interesting points about sports in general and how body types play such a massive part in outcomes regardless of any trans questions.

Agreed - body types do play a massive part in outcomes in sport. That's why basketball is dominated by very tall people, and wrestling by stocky ones, and gymnastics by flexible ones and so forth

Perhaps the TW are just another subset of body type

We both know that's not true. If they are a "subset" of anything, then they are a "subset" of males - but not of male body type; of male "feelings"

Especially if you accept that a solution that is fair to all should be found and if you consider trans people to be the gender that they identify as then what can be done?

What can be done? Well - what about remember that "gender" (a social construct of stereotypes which varies between cultures and over history) is NOT the same as SEX (a biological fact which is immutable, is the same in every culture and has been so throughout history). That's a start.

And to address Tppl as the gender they identify is a courtesy - it doesn't mean that I have accepted they have "changed sex"- just that they have adopted the gender stereotypes associated with the opposite sex. I don't accept that any of these men are really women. Nor are TiFs men. Everyone remains he sex they were born, and which is observed and identified at birth - not "assigned".

*Perhaps some kind of weight and height classes need to be determined rather than gender."

Not the "gotcha" you might think - a 5'5, 9st man is considerably stronger and faster (on average) than a 5'5 9 st woman. He has greater bone density, more fast twitch muscles, larger heart greater lung capacity . . . and more.

Plus there is the changing room situation. 98% of TiMs do not have any surgery and many don't have hormone treatment either. Male trans athletes tend to have just enough hormone therapy to "qualify" as women. And they want to be validated as female by using women's facilities.

Lia Thomas, for instance, refused separate changing and showering facilities and demanded to use the same room as the girls on Lia's team. They aren't comfortable with this, but that's obviously just because they are transphobic bigots.

They have complained that Lia's towel often "slips" to reveal Lia's genitals - and that Lia is "obviously attracted to women" - ie he is strutting around the changing room and shower with an erection.

Do you think this is acceptable? Apart from unfairness in competition, where is the dignity and privacy for the women on Lia's team? Do you think it is even safe?

Sorry = bold fail at height and weight bit

*Also - Lia is strutting

Yes we all know that body types make a big difference. And the most striking difference in body types is between male and female bodies. That is why if you look at the top performing sports people, across sports, the top performers are male.