Who is being unreasonable? (If anyone!)

[Specter123]

John and Jane have been together for 6ish years. They bought a house together 2 years ago - no DC yet and not married.

John has had a tough time during the pandemic. He started a new job, had a falling out with the manager and left without a job to go to. He has also been diagnosed with a mental health condition during the pandemic and is now medicated but still working out the right dose etc.

Jane has worked throughout the pandemic. She has picked up John's share of the housework while everything has been going on and is now the sole breadwinner. She is also a carer for an elderly parent. She does however work from home pretty much permanently now.

John has now decided he does not see himself back in paid employment for at least another year so he can get himself straight, find new coping mechanisms and pursue a complete career change. He has savings to continue to pay his share for approx another 2 months. He has been paying towards the bills since he left employment (albeit, at a reduced rate) but these savings are now running out. Jane brings home a reasonable salary, enough to run the household without a contribution although things would be very tight.

Jane feels like she is carrying the load solo and sees this as evidence that what she assumed would be a short term thing is now becoming long term, unilaterally decided by John.

John is hurt by this and sees it as Jane being selfish and unsupportive. He honestly believes that a career change is necessary to protect his mental health and that he would be much better suited to this other career.

YABU - Jane is unreasonable
YANBU - John is unreasonable

No-one's BU here and honesty is the best policy. Tell John you're not coping. Tell him what you need whether it's more help with chores or him sitting down with his mental health practitioner and organising his benefits or splitting up - only you know. For what it's worth, I think you've done brilliantly in supporting him thus far and hope the talk goes well

I think some of the comments are quite harsh.

I've been struggling with my mental health over the last year, and on the worst days, I wasn't able to do anything. Getting out of bed was hard. Doing the housework was impossible. Even reading a book was too hard.

I live on my own, so there was no one to see and judge all of this, or to have to pick up after me. I just lived in a mess until a good day happened and I felt able to act like a normal human being. Poor mental health can stop you in your tracks. I don't think you realise what it can do until you experience it.

I think it could be unreasonable to expect John to do the housework instead of working. If he's not capable of working right now, he could be unable to do alternative stuff, like housework. I would argue he's right in that Jane isn't seeing mental health in the same way as physical health.

However, John and Jane aren't married. There's only so much that Jane owes him. Marriage is a contract for in sickness and in health. Shacking up for six years is a relationship with a get out clause. No one would blame Jane for feeling resentful. John is essentially asking her to support him in the unconditional and open-ended way a spouse would. It's a big ask.

If John genuinely isn't up to working or looking after the home, I think that's OK to an extent, but only if he is actively working with medical professions to get better. That doesn't just involve taking drugs, it also involves doing the hard work, like going to individual and/or group therapy where relevant.

Talking therapies are really difficult, but I think they're the sort of difficult you can reasonably push someone to do. Housework might or might not be. As he gets better though, John should be aiming to pull his weight around the home.

Can you phrase it as about the plan forward? A year is too long. He needs much shorter milestones, just like a degree has the topic and assessment for the first 2 weeks, or a weight loss plan has micro goals and bigger goals. And housework and cooking need to be an integral part of the goal ‘I am stressed and tired, I worry I’d grow to resent you if you had
Fun hobbies and got exercise snd i was cooking your dinner and doing the washing each night before collapsing Into bed, we need to be a team on this’

@Specter123

So, we're both home at the same time tomorrow for the first time since I posted the thread.

I am a little nervous but it's been great to hear all your thoughts.

The main bit I keep tripping over, how can I start this conversation without it seeming like I'm kicking him while he's down? I keep thinking, how bad would I feel if I was going through a rough time in work, was ill and then my DP started talking about me not pulling my weight? I'd always want to be contributing but I guess these things do wax and wane over a lifetime as others on the thread have mentioned. What if this is just a bump in the road that won't even matter 10 years down the line?

Any perspectives very welcome!

It could be a bump in the road and things will be great in 10 years. However, equally things could be even worse in 10 years time and it's all the more difficult to leave as there are kids in the equation and resentment has built so much you can't stand the sight of him. Any choice you make is part-chance really but a couple of red flags stand out for me:

• The fact that he thinks you are unsupportive and selfish. He should have listened to your concerns, taken on board and recognise how hard it is for YOU too.
• The fact that he's effectively told you what's going to happen rather than you coming up with a plan together
• Is he engaging in any therapy? As he should be doing his damndest to get better and this would be part of it. I see where he's coming from with the comparison to cancer as mental health CAN be equally serious BUT if he had cancer he would presumably be attending every appointment he could to fight it! Could you give him an ultimatum about sourcing talking therapy? e.g. you're prepared to support him for x months but he has to sort this out!

I wonder if you'd also benefit from some therapy of your own just to bounce ideas off someone and make sense of it all in your own mind.

How old are you both out of interest? Sorry if I've missed this.

I agree you need him to explain his plan going forward. Why has he decided it needs to be a year off? Why not until he improves? When his money runs out how is he going to pay his share of the mortgage, he's assuming you will pay it of course. The relationship has become massively unbalanced, he's focusing on his health and dictating what HE has decided, but when did you agree to it? The time has come to tell him you can't carry on bearing the load for another 7 months

If I were Jane (you) I’d cut and run. I know that’s easy to say. I’m guessing that you are at most early 30s given that you want dc but aren’t actually trying. I wouldn’t spend the next 50-70 years being a carer to a man I’d only been with for 6 years, wasn’t married to and had no children with if that man was showing the level of manipulation and laziness that John is showing, he decides to quit work, he decides you will support him while he doesn’t work and doesn’t even bother to try to get a low stress job (there was a mother on a student thread a few weeks ago whose 16/17yo was bringing in £15k a year shelf stacking at Asda at night part time) or claim benefits, he can’t put a wash on. Different if you are 50 with a 30 year history and dependent children. Totally agree with a poster on page 1 that the next step will be starting his own gardening business or writing a screenplay. You’ll be 50 and wrung dry and he’ll be writing a blog on the artist life “by 9:30 I’m sitting at the typewriter in my office” accompanied by picture of healthy man in pink trousers with mug of coffee from a £2k machine sitting at a perfectly clear desk in a stylishly monastic looking room. There will be ironing strewn all over the rest of the house and the litter tray is overflowing. It’s not your job to carry him through the rest of his life. Even his mum put him down when he could toddle. Don’t have kids with him.

During my relationship I’ve been a sahp, unemployed, retrained (3year degree) and dh has had a sustained period of unemployment and has started 2 businesses which has been really tough. None of it has been done unilaterally. DH has had a major, now in remission health issue and my 3rd and 4th pregnancies have been horrendous in terms of my ability to get things done, (walk, drive etc- I wish things had only taken 10x the time) which has been very unfortunate but neither of us have just said “you do everything, mate”.

@alltheteeshirts the thing is he is managing to get out for exercise and his hobbies. I very much doubt op is doing any of that. I'm not saying he shouldn't be doing those things as they are clearly helping him, but he in turn is not helping op and she is struggling and could end up where he is now. What happens then?

My ds has depression and doesn't go out or have a job as such (well, he is currently working, but not earning yet), and his gf is the main earner, but he does do all the cleaning, laundry and cooking at their home.

I know mental health issues are like a piece of string in how long they can last, but it is unfair op is shouldering everything and struggling. If she does say something he says she wouldn't say that if he had cancer, which is just a manipulative thing to say. I know people who have had cancer and are still living with it who manage to do things. Not every day, but they don't spend all their time is bed.

I agree with numbertheory with regards to your chat later. Hope it goes well

@Mangogogogo

I left my job during a huge bipolar episode. Partner supported me. I couldn’t work for a while and he did a lot with regards to everything. A month ago he left a contract that was making him ill and I’m supporting him until he starts his new job soon. We’re partners, isn’t that what we do?

@Mangogogogo - am so pleased to read your post and see some decency and humanity. I sometimes (often) despair at the attitude of Mumsnet to (male) mental health problems

@Specter123

So, we're both home at the same time tomorrow for the first time since I posted the thread.

I am a little nervous but it's been great to hear all your thoughts.

The main bit I keep tripping over, how can I start this conversation without it seeming like I'm kicking him while he's down? I keep thinking, how bad would I feel if I was going through a rough time in work, was ill and then my DP started talking about me not pulling my weight? I'd always want to be contributing but I guess these things do wax and wane over a lifetime as others on the thread have mentioned. What if this is just a bump in the road that won't even matter 10 years down the line?

Any perspectives very welcome!

As soon as he makes you feel like you're kicking a puppy, that's when you're being manipulated to accept his authority over you.

Your example is when you're at work - so you wouldn't walk out and inform him he's now supporting you indefinitely as well as doing everything else whilst you stayed up all night watching TV and sleeping all day and he was being cruel/abusive in not doing everything you demanded.

Decide what you want to achieve from your chat. You may need to tackle 1 or 2 topics to begin. He may be very open and immediately say "you're right darling I haven't thought of this from your perspective enough". Great. Go from there.

I would want him to begin to bring in an income. I'd be very honest and tell him 1. This burden is too much for me. 2. I can't afford it. Tell him your plans (for a change) eg a holiday, new car, extra pension... whatever you want.

Remember this is your money and life. You don't have to justify or explain. Indeed he planned your income without discussion. Did he agonise over how to approach that discussion with you?

He says you can manage on 1 income. You don't want to manage and why should you. This isn't working for you (OK a few months is one thing but what he's dictated now is ridiculous)

He needs an income from work and/or benefits. This is for him to arrange, not you.

This conversation is about you. Keep it focused on you. Time to flip things around.

Hope it went ok OP and you're holding up etc.

Do come back if you need too.

Thanks everyone.

We had a chat and we've worked up a bit of a compromise.

He apologised that he'd made me feel the way he had, and his view was that him mentioning the year was him getting my view. I don't know that I Buy the latter 100% but he did seem genuinely remorseful that I'd been feeling Put upon.

We've agreed we will split our shared savings and that he will look into his eligibility for help from elsewhere (i.e. a part time job). With his current savings plus half of the joint savings, he may be able to get another few months with little/no income.

Either way, we will both be responsible for our own share of our costs and how he funds that will be up to him.

Thanks for all your thoughts, advice and comments.

My bet is that if Jane left, John would suddenly find himself starting to apply for jobs.

We've agreed we will split our shared savings and that he will look into his eligibility for help from elsewhere (i.e. a part time job). With his current savings plus half of the joint savings, he may be able to get another few months with little/no income.

Gosh, you're generous . I hope this works out for you, I really do.

But be really careful you don't get sucked into a kind of gaslighting situation. Please.

I’m glad you’ve talked and he’s seen your perspective! I hope it works out and you get the John you thought you had back. Is he going to do any housework?

@SucculentChalice

My bet is that if Jane left, John would suddenly find himself starting to apply for jobs.

Absolutely.

I appreciate my age in my late 50's leaves me a bit 🙄about this.

Thankfully even the kind OP is a bit 🙄about his apology for a misunderstanding 🙄.

The OP is a very kind, capable woman.

Just the type that is ripe to completely lose her future.

Sacrificed to a man with MH problems and his needs.

I am old and I believe this one life is very precious.

Unfortunately their are those who live off others.

I have seen this inequality, inequity in relationships in my life.

One giving.
One taking.

One sacrificing so much.
One having take so much so easily.

I have two daughters and I know that I NEVER want them to sacrifice their precious lives for a relationship which is so uneven and demands that they support so much.

I could give a damn if that is selfish.

I WANT them selfish about how precious their lives are.

The leaving his job due to a fall out with his manager is a red flag to me

He also seems to be deciding what will improve his mental health not health professionals. He should be following advice from professionals not deciding himself.

Is he doing the basics? Ie daily exercise, mindfulness or meditation, staying away from alcohol and eating healthy??

If not, I’d doubt his commitment to his health and well being and end it.

I hope he plays straight and fair OP... I really really do... But I don't think he will.

I think he'll do the bare minimum to keep you sweet.
It'll drag on and on and on.
His savings will dry up..
Shared savings will dry up..

6 months - 12 months time, he'll be broke and start playing the heart strings for just another 3 months...
And another...
And another...

5 years time you'll come to regret the 5 years you've wasted.

I hope I'm very very very wrong.
Just keep your eyes open for the next few weeks, you'll see if he meant what he's said..

Thanks everyone.

I am definitely more aware now and I'm still really shocked in the change in him. 6 years is a long time to put up a front and so I think it's likely a result of everything that has happened. Whether it's permanent or not will be the big question for me.

We have an agreed plan and I'm feeling okay about it. It was a difficult conversation but I think I made myself clear.

We're apart this weekend which is a good chance to digest.

Thanks again for all your help, advice and concern.

I can see you've made some progress in this latest discussion. Maybe scheduling those in would help, so you don't feel you have to make it a thing by bracing yourself to bring it up? E.g. you agree that at the end of every month you'll have a 'talking through how we're both doing' evening as a kind of review?

That would also be a space for you to talk about your own stresses, and that seems important to me to do for the future. I would want to be saying 'I feel overwhelmed by (housework, parents) right now, how can we deal with that together?' Then see if he's willing to help you out as well as being helped.

I think this one could be a see how it goes. I have children with adhd, tuning medication can be tricky. If mine take their second dose too late it mucks up their sleep. One also has sleep issues and one has to have a routine to maintain decent sleep. Has he looked at melatonin?

I would be cautious, he should be doing a bit more in the house to take the load off of you. Words are all very well but if they’re not back by actions they mean nothing. My DH is like it, lots of ‘I love you’ but is absent when the kids paperwork needs doing, he avoids it. Resentment has done a lot of damage to our relationship. I’m not sure my husband realises how much damage his lack of helping me and supporting and giving me what I need has done.

I’d have a rough timeline in my mind of how long you want to give him to start making some moves forward. It’s sensible not to bring kids into this. In the meantime, in whatever ways you can you need to ease the load you’re carrying before you burn out.

If I truly loved him I'd give him a chance to see if the "old" John comes back since you say this really is a drastic change compared to the man he was when you met. I initially thought he had ADHD but reading through your posts I'm guessing it's something more serious as ADHD really isn't an excuse to react in the manner he seems to be.

If after say six months or so it's clear this is going to be a long term change then I'd end the relationship. I couldn't have a future with someone like this. Having children would be an utter disaster.

6 years is a long time to put up a front and so I think it's likely a result of everything that has happened

It really isn't. Some people put up fronts for decades before the true them is revealed. Not just the Shipman's and Savilles of the world either.