Who is being unreasonable? (If anyone!)

[Specter123]

John and Jane have been together for 6ish years. They bought a house together 2 years ago - no DC yet and not married.

John has had a tough time during the pandemic. He started a new job, had a falling out with the manager and left without a job to go to. He has also been diagnosed with a mental health condition during the pandemic and is now medicated but still working out the right dose etc.

Jane has worked throughout the pandemic. She has picked up John's share of the housework while everything has been going on and is now the sole breadwinner. She is also a carer for an elderly parent. She does however work from home pretty much permanently now.

John has now decided he does not see himself back in paid employment for at least another year so he can get himself straight, find new coping mechanisms and pursue a complete career change. He has savings to continue to pay his share for approx another 2 months. He has been paying towards the bills since he left employment (albeit, at a reduced rate) but these savings are now running out. Jane brings home a reasonable salary, enough to run the household without a contribution although things would be very tight.

Jane feels like she is carrying the load solo and sees this as evidence that what she assumed would be a short term thing is now becoming long term, unilaterally decided by John.

John is hurt by this and sees it as Jane being selfish and unsupportive. He honestly believes that a career change is necessary to protect his mental health and that he would be much better suited to this other career.

YABU - Jane is unreasonable
YANBU - John is unreasonable

Can verify.
Exh left 3.5 years ago because "i felt like his carer or mother, not his wife".

Yes jackass, because you made me care for you for 15 years whilst also raising our children.

Don't be me. Run now.

OP,

Perhaps you will be very lucky and at some point down the line he will revert to the way he was before, but I think you are taking a huge gamble.

You have become his mother/carer and he quite likes it.

The cancer comparison is deeply offensive, particularly as he has the energy for hobbies but not housework.

How lovely for him that he is planning another 12 months of resting up and hobbies, while the dirty business of paying for and housework are left to the house skivvy, Jane.

If you were my daughter I would be telling you save yourself.

Do not have children with a man who has opted out.

You have reduced your life to being a workhorse, paying for it all while he finds himself and enjoys his hobbies.

He needs to move back with his parents whilst you decide what to do with the house.

Sell it or buy his half, but do not commit to this as your future.

@Sweetmotherofallthatisholyabov

If he had cancer he'd be sitting down with his medical team and including Jane and working out a plan together. They'd be looking at finances and benefits and insurance. They'd be coming up with a cohesive plan for how everyone could get support including Jane. So correct- he's not treating it like a cancer diagnosis.

I do hope you are not comparing caring for someone with mental illness to cancer or any other physical illness. It is not the same. People with severe mental illness are often, by the very nature of the illness, self absorbed, unaware of their symptoms, decreased executive thinking skills, less than compliant with medication, etc

added to that people with cancer get a lot of support from the NHS and charities like Mac million. Mentally ill patients get dosed up ( these days without even a stay in hospital for proper observation and diagnosis), sent out into “care in the community “ which if they’re lucky means they get to see their specialist (psychiatrist) once every 6 months for 20 mins. That’s it. Until they crash and have another crisis which you might get to see the psychiatrist a bit sooner. people have no idea about this reality when they say “ his medical team”. It’s a joke

People suffering with cancer are generally treated with sympathy, mental illness elicits responses of lack of understanding (they’re just lazy, they need to think more positively, they need to get some exercise , get out the house etc etc), fear, or disinterest.

It is not a valid comparison And hugely disrespectful to carers of those with mental illness who have a 1 in 3 chance of developing mental health problems themselves, are constantly fighting to get medical resources, are spending 24/7 acting as untrained and unpaid CPN and dealing with the changed dynamics in their relationship where the “parent-child” roles push them permanently into parent without agreement or choice.

The op needs to state that he does not have cancer. He is being treated in a completely different model in nhs as a mental health patient. That this model of care in community puts a huge and unreasonable burden of care on her. It has the very likely impact of making her ill too. There is no treatment to “cure” his condition, no pathway to gauge his recovery . It is not the same. And he needs to understand this and that he is emotionally black mailing her

I have been in James position - partner lost job had mental health issues and needed time to find himself before he could work again.

My case I hope would be the extreme. The longer he wasn't working - his mental health got worse and he lost confidence to get to work and then lost self worth as he wasn't working and then started drinking to cope with it all.

5 years of being at home without him working of contributing, couldn't help with house work as that affecting his mental health too.

Plus the drinking

I wish I had left at the 2 year mark.

For me - if my husband could have taken over the home stuff and managed a part time job while finding his new career - who knows where we would have been

I think john is going to drag Jane down and she should perhaps leave now

Although he has MH issues, he needs to find a way ti manage them whilst earning. Maybe a less stressful job but he needs an income

Does John have parents who can support him instead?

John needs to do a lot more housework.
My DH was John -- he picked up lots housework & now mostly runs the house (as well as working PT).

How old are you? Is this going to make it impossible for you to take maternity leave if you want to? Will you end up having to set aside the option of having children for just that little bit too long? If you want a family and the situation is already so unbalanced, what will happen when you need him to step up?

I was Jane. For 20 years plus. I divorced after 30 years of marriage as I finally broke
It sent a marriage in the sense most marriages are. I was more of a parent for him. My sex life and any form of intimacy vanished for the last 19 years. I was sole parent, sole breadwinner and full time untrained CPN.
Many people, who were involved in care for mentally ill patients told me to get out early. I stayed because of my marriage vows and that he wanted treatment and was cooperating in his care plan. But I had 2 bouts of severe depression myself as a consequence. I also had to take early retirement at lower pension to protect my well-being.
After I retired, he decided to stop taking medication. His behaviour became unreasonable to extent I wasn’t safe. I left and divorced him and am still recovering from the pain of it all

Only you, Op, can decide whether and when you reach a point where your boundaries are crossed. But you do need to decide those boundaries and lay them out to John. One of those might be that he must get work in next 3 months. Any work- part time, low paid or whatever. As much as anything it is widely recognised that returning to workforce as early as possible aids recovery from mental illness - he is not helping himself to say he wants to take time out completely. He can take a part time role whilst he puts his ducks in order for career change. Make this your boundary. Explain if he does not work, and aid his recovery for himself, his life will change as you will divorce and he will either have to survive on benefits, savings or go back to work anyway.

John shouldn’t be deciding anything on his own - it needs a proper joint discussion.

I would suggest that a year off is not the starting point but the absolute maximum time off to work towards whilst reviewing things say every 3 months.

However during this time, he needs to show that he is working on himself and doing some tasks, even if small to start with so that you feel confident things are going in the right direction.

After all, if he can’t cope with basic home tasks how is he going to deal with work tasks?

@welshladywhois40

I have been in James position - partner lost job had mental health issues and needed time to find himself before he could work again.

My case I hope would be the extreme. The longer he wasn't working - his mental health got worse and he lost confidence to get to work and then lost self worth as he wasn't working and then started drinking to cope with it all.

5 years of being at home without him working of contributing, couldn't help with house work as that affecting his mental health too.

Plus the drinking

I wish I had left at the 2 year mark.

For me - if my husband could have taken over the home stuff and managed a part time job while finding his new career - who knows where we would have been

No, t wasn’t streamed. It is very typical. Sadly. Another Jane.

Extreme not streamed

@1MillionSelfiesTakenByMyKids

Can verify. Exh left 3.5 years ago because "i felt like his carer or mother, not his wife".

Yes jackass, because you made me care for you for 15 years whilst also raising our children.

Don't be me. Run now.

Yes, this too…..except I was “controlling “ him too. Yep, probably was given his executive thinking skills meant he had impaired judgement, decision making, planning ability, lack of motivation and initiative Plus he was constantly in conversation with the 2 other people inside his head who were nasty and vindictive and he responded to me as part of that conversation- for which I had boundaries about what was unreasonable behaviour I stayed for 20 years. Until the boundaries were smashed. Heartbreaking

I’m unemployed right now after leaving work due to physical and mental health problems.

I’ve picked up the slack at home and I discussed it all with dh first so he wasn’t in the dark

@Changethetoner

I voted Jane is unreasonable, because if you love someone, then it is in sickness and in health. I appreciate they are not actually married, but have been together for a reasonable length of time. They are an established couple, and with that, comes responsibility to care for each other. John is ill. Jane is having a hard time, but remember so is John.

🤦‍♀️🙄 you are clearly very naïve about mental illness . I did take my marriage vows very seriously…for 30 years with the last 20 caring for my DH with severe and enduring mental health illness. I divorced after 30 years of marriage. I still love him. But mental illness changes the dynamics of a marriage…effectively he rejected me and my love over and over again. I knew it was the illness. But it was like being in hell. I was also not his wife anymore, I was effectively his parent…he could no longer be a husband and partner in terms of equal, mutually supportive partnerships.

I became ill myself as a result. Twice

Do not lecture people about keeping vows when you have no idea how destructive these illnesses are on a relationship.

@MayMorris I apologise I came across as disrespectful, I didn't mean to cause any offence at all. I didn't make the cancer comparison- John did. My point was there is no comparison, although obviously poorly made.

@Underfrighter

John should be doing the housework and some low stress paid work. John wants to protect his mental health but at the expense of his partner who he expects to pick up his share whilst caring for elderly parents which is a job in itself. What support is john providing to jane while she also goes through a difficult time?

This.

If John had a health condition or accident that meant he couldn't stand up for long periods then he would find ways of helping around that eg meal planning, doing the online shop, prepping food while sitting at a table/counter, small bursts of cleaning/tidying with rest breaks built in, other admin for Jane such as booking dentists, to relieve a burden on her.

Mental health problems (i assume were talking about stress/burnout/depression /anxiety) can make you disinclined to housework etcbut they do not prevent you from doing it, nor do they exacerbate the condition. In fact doing basic functional tasks will aid recovery.

Run Jane, Run!!!!

Can I ask OP what the hobbies are that he is able to do and that help him? You see the thing I'm struggling with is that he is able to do those, but isn't able to do the housework because it stresses him out. Essentially anything he wants to do - fine. Anything he 'should' or 'needs' to do - not fine. If he persists with that approach I would be saying well what are your plans to be able to start doing these things? (Like say start with just one simple task - be responsive for the dishwasher say, and try and build from there). Because if he doesn't have one, how will he be able to get back into work? It will always be too stressful (and the fact that you sending him job adverts was stressing him out is a bit telling). What is his plan to retrain, and make this career change happen and what is the timeframe? Or are the actual actions required for it put off to some unspecified future time when he is 'feeling better'? I guess as you and others have said, there's a difference between asking this of you and make the decision together, and telling you this is what he's going to do, and there's also a difference between 'this is my plan to get better and make the career change - here are the steps I will be taking, the actions I will be doing, and this is the approximate timeframe' versus just some vague 'I want to do this but I can't do anything about it - in fact I can't even do anything to contribute to the running of the household either until I'm feeling better so in the meantime you can't ask anything of me, expect anything of me, I'm just going to do only the things I want to do as everything else is too stressful'. Frankly that attitude is breathtakingly selfish.
John thinks Jane is being discriminatory towards his mental health condition versus if he had a physical condition. Often (not always of course) with a physical condition though there's a bit more of a mapped out timeframe, a plan for recovery hopefully.

Oh and also sorry I forgot the bit about you caring for an elderly parent too on top of absolutely everything else. What about your mental health? What support does he give you given the enormous amount you've got on your plate? I'm sorry but it sounds unsustainable for you OP, I think you need a very frank conversation with John as he's still supposed to be your partner and support and decision making is supposed to be mutual.

Hi OP I really feel for you both. He's clearly still unwell and you're now in a position you didn't apply for. :(

Do you love him? Can he take over household matters? And I mean all of them as you have no children?

My hubby became ill whilst I was prevalent with no 2. He stopped work completely abd fir 6m I continued to pay for child care. I then lost it. £20k pa on child care and a loss of 50% of our income and I'm doing everything inc full time job. I told him he could leave or look after tge kids and home. He chose the latter. I thought it would be for a few months, but my DH never recovered.

Mental ill health is not easy to fix. The person needs to want to fix it and often their loved ones compensate so much that they don't feel the need to fix it - it becomes a 'comfortable' state for them. So, he may never recover or go back to work. Get him to properly set a goal. 12m is too long unless he can contribute to the household. A doctor may be able to help him set goals. Medication can take 3m to be effective, but once it's working he should be good to go back to work. So tgat means looking for a job now!

I can be a worrier and he makes the good point that I have a good wage and we're in a better position than many others

No. He's in a better position. You're in a shit position. He takes. You give.

Yanbu
John needs to get a job asap

@Specter123
I was Jane for years- until he left me. I was actually grateful he left me by that time as he had turned into someone I cared for (next to the 2 DC). He is not a horrible person at all but perhaps more selfish than most..
I felt like I could not leave him as he would be unable to support himself. He left me for someone with less money but he could move in with her. From one mum to the next ... lol

IMO John is being unreasonable. He has unilaterally decided that he is going to reduce his mental health problems (and I assume by effect, stress and anxiety) but by doing so he will be increasing stress and anxiety for Jane.

A few months would be fine, but it feels like a year is taking the piss. Would he be taking a year out if Jane wasn’t around as his support crutch and keeping him fed and sheltered? No, he would have to get on with it like the rest of us.

There has to be a better compromise here.

How much does Jane love John and vice versa??
Does Jane think new career will make a difference?
It's really difficult one, I think ideally you love and support your partner as best you can,it's sounds financially viable and may well be best for John's mental health ( but possibly not Jane's!) I can see it has the potential for resentment.
I think John would need to contribute in other ways, housework DIY, gardening etc and I think it would be sensible to have a plan in place for retraining and a time frame for being back until work.
Although Mental illness can be really hard as it doesn't have a clear road map back to health but it does sounds like John is recovering and has a plan, its up to Jane if she wants to support this.