I wonder how Leave voters feel about P&O Ferries.

[lecreusetpeppermill]

I know many people voted one way or the other for different reasons, but those who were concerned about immigration 'swallowing jobs' or driving wages down.......how do they feel about this recent story?

Do they not feel lied to?

Quite apart from passenger ferries, we are dependent on ships entering UK ports to deliver our food. If you bar ships from entering UK ports unless crew are paid UK min wage/comply with UK regulations, you can count on still further price increases even over and above the current Brexit red tape costs.

On the radio (bbc) this evening this seems to have been reframed a Shapps threat of a law change if the sacked workers are not taken back on (presumably so they can be sacked later on worse terms when nobody is looking). This government really doesn’t have a clue.

Alexandra2001 You need to read some of the NATO Sec Gen annual reports over the last few years to see how parlous the state of defence spending amongst certain of the European Allies was. It's taken Trump shaming them when he opened the new HQ NATO building, plus a war to make them see a degree of sense, something that Obama failed to do at the Caerleon Summit, or did you miss that bit?

Why should the U.S. do all the heavy lifting in NATO in terms of money? Why should the U.S. effectively fund European defence? Do you think it acceptable for German soldiers to go on exercise with broom handles instead of rifles? Remind me who was the German defence minister when that happened and what she is doing now?

As to less self serving politicians in European countries....you are so naive. The EU is not stronger than ever, and the cracks that are there will deepen and widen again and again. When the EU has idiots like Von Der Leyen, Charles Michel and Guy Verhofstadt (neither of whom covered themselves in glory in running Belgium), and Jean Claude Juncker, who is not a model of probity, then principles seem to be long gone.

I think you'll find there are well educated members of the electorate in the UK. They just happen to hold a different point of view to you.

@Nightlystroll

I wonder how the new rules will affect the employees of P&O cruises and other British cruise lines? I'm not sure they'd survive higher costs.

Except during the pandemic, most of them didn't spend much time in British waters.

@TebayOrNotTebay

Quite apart from passenger ferries, we are dependent on ships entering UK ports to deliver our food. If you bar ships from entering UK ports unless crew are paid UK min wage/comply with UK regulations, you can count on still further price increases even over and above the current Brexit red tape costs.

This is why I specified that it would only apply to ships that spend 183+days (or part thereof) in British waters.

Freighters don't tend to have very large crews these days, though. The Atlantic Conveyor (the one sunk in the Falklands) had a crew of 33, a modern container ship would have 23, for probably twice the tonnage. It's nothing like the labour-intensive operation of running a passenger ship.

@Polyanthus2

If the Gov insists on them keeping to our minimum wage we can assume fewer ferries and much higher prices.

Like everything fares to cross the channel are rising, we use Brittany Ferries and their cheapest advanced ticket price to France is approx £350 rtn We shouldn't expect cheap fares off the back of poor wages.

The biggest issue for ferries operating out of Dover is the delays in getting there, the lorry queues are unbelievable, with motorway capacity halved.
Wonder what our esteemed govt did to cause that?

@thegcatsmother

So you think Johnson or Farage, are shinning examples of our political system?
A pair of racists & stooges of Putin, who willing did his bidding and in both cases, took Russian money

The EU is far from perfect and i'm sure you can show some me shocking examples of waste or indeed corruption but then again, i could of the NHS, the FO, HMRC or even the Tory party, however the fact remains its more popular than ever.

On NATO the UK is slashing defence spending, the aim to have less than 19k infantry by 2025 and we only reach the 2% of GDP by including military pensions and foreign office use of the military, its not great.

Had Trump been POTUS god alone knows where Putin would be now, probably in Moldova and heading into Latvia, with DT at MAG rallies telling his followers "its a European war, nothing to with us"

Yes Germany messed up on its military spending, however, they are increasing it by 100 billion euros per year, which will put them way ahead of the UK in absolute terms.

Agree, of course Europe should spend more on defence and they will do but thats down to Putin not Trump.

I think a pp posted earlier on the educational breakdown of both leave and remain voters and the fact is, leave voters had, on average lower attainment, its quite stark when looking at those with no qualifications also those not in work.

@Kendodd

I'd be interested to hear what Kwasi Kwarteng, Priti Patel, Dominic Raab, Chris Skidmore and Elizabeth Truss, think about it. Surely this is exactly the Britannia Unchained vision of the future they had of stripping away workers right.

I feel very out of my depth in this issue - but I did end up reading about Freeports after the P&O sackings. I don’t fully understand the issues at stake but the ‘employers don’t have to pay NI for 3 years and we’ll make sure they don’t abuse that’ bit did stand out as a bit… err… shit? I’m really not sure I trust this government with making sure that isn’t taken advantage of 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think a pp posted earlier on the educational breakdown of both leave and remain voters and the fact is, leave voters had, on average lower attainment, its quite stark when looking at those with no qualifications also those not in work.

People for whom the existing system wasn't working decided to vote for change? Why would this be surprising?

I think a pp posted earlier on the educational breakdown of both leave and remain voters and the fact is, leave voters had, on average lower attainment

That isn't a fact. That's a statistical probability. They are not the same.

The fact that people quote these things as facts so often causes me to question whether the innate superiority they have conferred upon themselves has any actual value.

@Justcallmebebes

Nice try OP but this is a Dubai owned company so absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

My understanding is that it's the country where the ships are registered that determines what employment regulations apply, not the country where the company is registered and/or owned.

My understanding is that it's the country where the ships are registered that determines what employment regulations apply, not the country where the company is registered and/or owned.

In which case Cyprus, Bermuda and the Bahamas are the relevant countries.

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

I think a pp posted earlier on the educational breakdown of both leave and remain voters and the fact is, leave voters had, on average lower attainment

That isn't a fact. That's a statistical probability. They are not the same.

The fact that people quote these things as facts so often causes me to question whether the innate superiority they have conferred upon themselves has any actual value.

Rather uncalled for! stating a statistic doesn't portray any innate superiority whatsoever.

Plenty of post ref polling show this to be the case, same polling shows that plenty of farmers voted Remain, despite the common misconception that they all voted to Leave!

Or did you not see IDS's face light up when told (back in '16) that a particularly run down housing estate had a very high turn out, he knew what that meant for the Leave vote.

Anyway, P&O CEO sticking to what they/he has done & redundancies will still take place c/w the NDA

So, despite the pre brexit promise of change (for the better) we have none.

stating a statistic doesn't portray any innate superiority whatsoever.

I agree. Calling statistics facts doesn't either.

May I remind you these statisticians are the same ones who mostly predicted a narrow victory for remain in the referendum by using the same techniques.

Anyway, P&O CEO sticking to what they/he has done & redundancies will still take place c/w the NDA

That is a despicable act by P&O. It doesn't appear that it's directly related to Brexit however.

So, despite the pre brexit promise of change (for the better) we have none.
I'm not sure what promise you think hasn't been met exactly - do you mean you think there was a general promise of everything getting better if we voted Leave? If so I can see how that's never going to be realised.

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

stating a statistic doesn't portray any innate superiority whatsoever.

I agree. Calling statistics facts doesn't either.

May I remind you these statisticians are the same ones who mostly predicted a narrow victory for remain in the referendum by using the same techniques.

Keep ignoring reality in favour of your ideology.

Let us know how well that turns out.

Do you know what happened to those Leave voters that were desperately voting for change?

They got a hell of a lot poorer.

Which is exactly what people with education and experience said would happen. Which is also precisely one of the drivers of why people voted remain.

Giving power to a Tory party that has treated the poor, low income, and disabled viciously going back decades had but only one expected result.

Absolutely none of this is hard to grasp or understand.

So no, no sympathy for them. Now they will suffer the full financial consequences of their vote.

Hopefully, that will teach them to never vote for the corrupt and incompetent Tories again.

I think you're a bit confused love...

@BambinaJAS
Yes, you are little confused. I have never voted Tory and consider it vanishingly unlikely I ever would.

Your apparent attribution of all poverty to the Brexit vote continues to be as humorous as your repeated claims to be better qualified than anyone else to have an opinion on anything, ever.

Is anyone attributing all poverty to Brexit? Brexit is one factor increasing poverty and division in the uk.

YABU

I wonder how long blaming everything on Brexit is going to go on for.

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

Anyway, P&O CEO sticking to what they/he has done & redundancies will still take place c/w the NDA

That is a despicable act by P&O. It doesn't appear that it's directly related to Brexit however.

So, despite the pre brexit promise of change (for the better) we have none.
I'm not sure what promise you think hasn't been met exactly - do you mean you think there was a general promise of everything getting better if we voted Leave? If so I can see how that's never going to be realised.

And round and round we go.. The links between Brexit and Grayling's law/ the effect on the "land bridge" were explained on page 1 of this thread. "Directly" related - well it depends what you mean by "directly" - but certainly related. I predict that the government will puff and blow for a week or so, and then this will be allowed to quietly fade into the background...Britannia Unchained!

@Kendodd

Is anyone attributing all poverty to Brexit? Brexit is one factor increasing poverty and division in the uk.

@BambinaJAS seems to be.

I won't quarrel about it being divisive - the blame for that lies with David Cameron and his government in my estimation.

I predict that the government will puff and blow for a week or so, and then this will be allowed to quietly fade into the background
I imagine you're right.

This kind of fire and replace has been going on for far longer than Brexit and the arguments around it though. As also mentioned on this thread it dates back way further - so people attributing it solely to Brexit are letting their prejudice cloud their judgement - it's complicated.

Irish Ferries did exact same a number of years ago and they operate under EU employment law.

And the majority of employment protection law is domestic and not EU lead. Its debatable whether any EU Treaty even gives them a legal basis for legislation in this area. They actually use the freedom of labour movement and creating a level playing field as the basis for employment legislation, they have never been given explicit powers in this area. Though of course not having a legal basis for action has never held them back before and is unlikely to in the future.