To wonder if veganism really is the answer?

[RubyFruitSunday]

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

On your first point OP, animals do lots of things that we wouldn’t do because we have the intellectually ability to know that if a human were to do them it would be morally abhorrent. For example, a male animal will have sex with a female animal whether that female wants to or not. We, as humans, know that that would be entirely wrong, so we don’t do it. For me, it’s the same with eating meat. Yes, animals do it but they don’t know any better - we do (or at least should).

If we look at other omnivores in the animal kingdom, they eat plant based most of the time and occasionally meat or bugs. I think that’s how we should be eating but not processed stuff. I dont think eating all the plant based pretend meat is particularly healthy either.

I remember a thread from a couple of years ago where a poster predicted the countryside would be covered in polytunnels if we all stopped eating meat. She was a beef farmer, I think. I can see her point. Organic farming will not keep pace with demand, so we'll have to use more pesticides, eat more from hydroponic farms, and settle for a less quality product. Otherwise, try and grow our own food like we did during wartime. I thinknwe shoestring less meat, but not exclude it altogether.

*I think we should (damn autocorrect)

I think you are better at looking at the overall impact.
e.g. a vegan (not necessarily your friends) can eat a high impact diet e..g almond milk causes water shortages, highly processed faux meat, avocados out of season. Or vice versa. Being a vegan doesn't make you necessrily better.

A thoughtful mostly vegetarian diet can be good too.

Most of the farmland in UK is growing cereal and vegetable crops already so there's be little change. Sheep are generally grazing land that can't be arable farmed. Obviously dairy farms would no longer be there.

I think there are some issues, environmentally/ ethically speaking, with the current form of veganism (and other diets), including highly processed food, food miles, reliance on crops such as almonds, soya and avocados, that make it not as morally sound as its proponents believe. I have been vegetarian for 25 years or so, and think that those who are hugely enthusiastic recent converts to veganism are missing the point somewhat.

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. [...] However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

This sounds like the uncompromising zeal of the recent convert.

I think you should worry less about what other people think. They have made choices and commitments that are right for them, and you are able to do the same.

It sounds like you are conscientious about how much meat you eat and where you get it from. If you don't have an ethical or dietary reason to become vegetarian or vegan, and don't especially want to, then don't.

And if other people fret about it, well, that is entirely a matter for them.

Human beings are omnivores. Back when we were hunters, we would have been eating primarily meat/fish, supplemented with berries/vegetables when available/in season.

We are now in a position where we can choose to be omnivore, carnivore (some people are!) or a vegetarian/vegan.

It's entirely up to you what you want to eat - and there are arguments from all sides as to what is 'best' for you and/or the environment.

Yeah dairy farming can go. Cheese is fab but it’s just weird to be consuming milk from other mammals. Most people would be disgusted if you offered them some human milk but other mammals milk is fine. It just seems bizarre to me.

@DepthOfTheAbyss is right. People say 'we are omnivores' as if it is natural to eat meat at every meal, but all of our anatomy and closest animal relatives point to us being a predominantly fruit eater with the occasional bit of bird or bug. Animals that aren't exclusive carnivores don't eat anywhere near as much meat as humans now do, nor did we for most of our history.

Sorry, last sentence was incomplete. Those recent converts who believe they are doing a hugely good thing but seeking to replicate a meat eating diet, or do not consider the impact of their diet other than 'is it plant based?' Are missing the point. Not that they're not doing, in my view, essentially a decent thing.

No, definitely not, not unless you want the NHS overwhelmed with slow growing "mystery" illness & disability, which is what happens if you don't get enough vitamin B12.

@Fr0thandBubble

On your first point OP, animals do lots of things that we wouldn’t do because we have the intellectually ability to know that if a human were to do them it would be morally abhorrent. For example, a male animal will have sex with a female animal whether that female wants to or not. We, as humans, know that that would be entirely wrong, so we don’t do it. For me, it’s the same with eating meat. Yes, animals do it but they don’t know any better - we do (or at least should).

Why do you think eating meat is morally abhorrent?

British beef has a less harmful impact on the environment than imported beef as it hasn't travelled as far and comes from grass cows. Buying British meat will minimise the environmental effects.

Scientists are working on dietary supplements for cows to reduce the methane they produce to lower their environmental impact.

Meat doesn't need much cooking, unlike pulses and beans.

If we look at other omnivores in the animal kingdom, they eat plant based most of the time and occasionally meat or bugs. I think that’s how we should be eating but not processed stuff. I dont think eating all the plant based pretend meat is particularly healthy either.

I'm not a meat eater, haven't eaten it since I was a small DC, but I absolutely agree with this

@Onthetoadagain

I think there are some issues, environmentally/ ethically speaking, with the current form of veganism (and other diets), including highly processed food, food miles, reliance on crops such as almonds, soya and avocados, that make it not as morally sound as its proponents believe. I have been vegetarian for 25 years or so, and think that those who are hugely enthusiastic recent converts to veganism are missing the point somewhat.

Agree with this, apart from still being vegetarian. I stopped being vegetarian partly because of some of these factors, especially the factory made, over produced foods and vast food miles involved. I don't agree that it is morally repugnant to eat animals but factory farming and transporting animals miles to vast slaughterhouses, and some of the mechanised methods are awful.

Strict veganism is difficult to maintain and is not always good for your health (vitamin deficiencies) or the planet (almond milk & flying in veg). But a 95% veggie diet is certainly better than eating lots of steak.

Ignore people who are over-strict about diet or obsess about it. That is very dull.

Eat more plants, but do keep the milk and eggs in your diet too. Eggs are great - very healthy and without the carbon footprint of milk / beef farming.

Personally I think it's perfectly normal to crave animal products and meat. I know if I don't eat red meat for a while, I really crave it. I eat bog standard supermarket meat because it's what I can afford but I think factory farming is appalling really.

a2 male animal will have sex with a female animal whether that female wants to or not. We, as humans, know that that would be entirely wrong, so we don’t do it. For me, it’s the same with eating meat. Yes, animals do it but they don’t know any better - we do (or at least should).

Are you equating eating meat with rape? This along with friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing. is part of the issue for me, the zealot-y 'you're evil' that is spouted with the bizarre expectation that this will convert people to their cause!

It's ok to be vegan.
It's ok not to be vegan.

You have to make that decision yourself.

Greta can sod right off :-)

a2 male animal will have sex with a female animal whether that female wants to or not. We, as humans, know that that would be entirely wrong, so we don’t do it. For me, it’s the same with eating meat. Yes, animals do it but they don’t know any better - we do (or at least should).

What a bizarre thought process

Animals eat what they biologically need to stay well. We need to do that too, or supplement what our diet lacks

I agree that we could all cut down our meat and diary consumption. But I'm not giving it up entirely. I eat mainly chicken or lamb several times a week and I eat eggs every day. I also eat fish most days. One day a week no meat or fish.
And you are right about the countryside - a lot if it looks the way it looks due to farming and gaming. The most efficient methods of growing food are not always compatible with protecting wildlife or encouraging biodiversity.
Cutting down is a good move. Your vegan friends are wrong.

Greta can sod right off :-)

I love her, but she's so obviously wrong on this & you just have to look at her face to see that she is deficient due to a vegan diet, so yellowish pale with dark circles & is exactly how my DD looked pre treatment & she has pernicious anaemia

@Onthetoadagain

I think there are some issues, environmentally/ ethically speaking, with the current form of veganism (and other diets), including highly processed food, food miles, reliance on crops such as almonds, soya and avocados, that make it not as morally sound as its proponents believe. I have been vegetarian for 25 years or so, and think that those who are hugely enthusiastic recent converts to veganism are missing the point somewhat.

I agree.

Isn't it @RockinHorseShit
'Hey lion you don't know any better that's why you eat meat..., have some tofu'...
I don't think that these animals would be very well if some virtue signalling amateur nutritionists came along and altered their diet!