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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if veganism really is the answer?

357 replies

RubyFruitSunday · 17/03/2022 09:17

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

  1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

  2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

OP posts:
EricCartmansMagicalUnderpants · 17/03/2022 10:18

I don't think much of the vegan food is particularly healthy, good for the environment etc. It's just vegan virtue signalling, part of the trend these days. I think if the meat you eat is sourced carefully, then I don't see a problem. I'd struggle to have friends that told me I was part of the problem though. I'd probably get rid of them, but then there's no room in my life for virtue signalling.

Hanooooooo · 17/03/2022 10:25

I don't think everyone being totally vegan is necessarily the answer, at least not now (and I am vegan). But I do think everyone needs to drastically reduce their consumption of meat, fish and dairy in order reduce carbon emissions and mass extinction.

I agree that commercial farming is unethical and personally I would feel a lot more comfortable with meat consumption if it was on a smaller scale with animals treated with dignity.

Regards to farming, we urgently need to reduce the amount of land we use for farming and turn it over to rewilding before we lose even more precious species. Have a look at this www.rewildingbritain.org.uk/

Also I don't think it's okay to moralise on others' diet choices and it's not helpful either! Everyone follows their own moral compass, individual impact is minimal and it's for the government to step up and act with the evidence in front of them.

Pedallleur · 17/03/2022 10:33

No doubt if the these people owned farms they would see things differently. prob still have 2 x cars and go on long haul holidays. better have a plan if we decide to decimate the farming/dairy industry which I agree needs to be remodelled but flying mung beans from the Andes or Kelp from California isnt great either

SucculentChalice · 17/03/2022 10:34

I live in a big arable farming area OP. The land here is ideal for growing the typical British arable crops of wheat, rape, oats, and winter barley, peas, beans, with some others. Its hideous.

To maximise yield per acre, all the farming is contracted out to agricultural contractors who have giant machinery. Said giant machinery doesn't do anything but straight lines so all the corners are just left to do nothing and that means they are sprayed to death with pesticides and weedkillers. The hedgerows were dug up years ago to maximise yield and most of the traditional footpaths/bridleways were ploughed over or diverted to the most inconvenient spots so they are no longer used because they are so overgrown.

No wildlife is permitted to live here. There used to be deer but they have been shot. All "pests" are shot regularly, such as pigeons. Theres also trapping going on, illegal or permitted, it happens. I think that theres some arrangement whereby people are allowed to shoot or trap for sport and are permitted to do it free of charge or for a small payment. Its all quite secretive. Anyway, nothing lives here.

Its like living in an arable desert. There are individual farms but the owners don't farm themselves any more, except for a few historical leases to people who rent the land for their own sheep. There were literally two fields where that went on and last summer one of those was ploughed up and the other is unused and full of weeds now. There is one local farmer who farms his own land (by some miracle its a mixed arable and grazing farm) and I am friends with his farm labourer, and I often think he is the last of a dying breed. He has lived in his tied cottage and worked on that farm all his life and will retire there. He isn't being replaced.

The monotony of the scenery here is actually dreadful and quite depressing. The land is in crops all year round with I think every 3rd winter off. Every last ounce is got out of the land here, and its pumped full of fertiliser and additives and weedkillers to do so.

I know if you live in a modern housing estate, veganism sounds like some kind of great solution but in reality it isn't. The UK has a high population because it lies in the middle of a climate zone which pre-disposes to mixed farming and can produce a lot of food than drier or colder areas. It has good, mixed soils and prime beef can be reared on those areas and sheep and deer on its higher land.

What I'd actually support is more forestation and public access of non-animal farmed areas for recreation because much of upland Britain isn't a natural environment by any means and the lack of tree cover increases soil loss and acidity, meaning nothing can grow. Theres a farming initiative to encourage young people into farming and smaller farms, because the trend is increasingly towards mega farms farmed by contractors who do it as a job and who have little relationship with the land because they don't live on it.

The UK isn't that bad for farming animals compared to most countries because we tend to keep them in for shelter and food over winter and turn them out in summer. In many countries, cattle, sheep and pigs are in all year round.

Also bear in mind that not all arable land is suitable for all arable crops. Potatoes for instance require a very particular climate and soil type to grow well and can't be grown everywhere. So a smallholding looking to be self sufficient would likely be deficient in certain nutrients from certain crops and would have to trade with others IYSWIM.

The UK's best naturally growing crop by far is grass. The UK produces wonderful, nutritious grasses that can easily be made into enough hay to sustain grazing animals kept indoors over winter or supplement outdoor grazing.

Comedycook · 17/03/2022 10:34

I'm very sceptical that veganism is better for the environment. I'm not sure eating fake meat made in a factory and tropical fruit flown across the world is a better choice necessarily. It's probably better to eat as much locally produced food as possible be it animal or plant

BarbaraofSeville · 17/03/2022 10:45

@DepthOfTheAbyss

If we look at other omnivores in the animal kingdom, they eat plant based most of the time and occasionally meat or bugs. I think that’s how we should be eating but not processed stuff. I dont think eating all the plant based pretend meat is particularly healthy either.
I agree with this. Years ago, Michael Pollan said 'Eat food, mostly plants, not too much' as a basis for health, and maybe also environmental/sustainability reasons. Nothing more is needed really, or fancy labelling.

People can be vegan if they want to be, but most people don't. But what will benefit most for animal welfare, health and environmental reasons is that if everyone significantly cuts down the amount of animal produce they eat rather than a few people insisting that it has to be done 100%, but then a lot of those reducing the benefit by eating a lot of food that is either massively processed, or flown from the other side of the world after being grown in environmentally damaging ways and also threatening the food security of people in poorer countries.

harmoniadream · 17/03/2022 10:56

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing

I'd say your biggest problem is your friends. I'm vegetarian, so is one of my siblings, my parents eat mostly plant-based but sometimes fish/meat, and my friends are a mixture of vegan/veggie/omni. None of us ever try to tell the others what they should or shouldn't eat or that their choice of diet is a problem.

Peasock · 17/03/2022 10:58

I don't get the all or nothing stance, surely lots of people doing something, even something small is better than relatively few people being 100%. I suspect given their attitude they're not passionate about it beyond wanting to look like they're doing something.

2orangey · 17/03/2022 11:17

For me it is about reducing harm as best as I can. To people, animals and the environment. No one can avoid harming others completely though.

I don't eat meat but do eat eggs and dairy. Yes, this does cause harm, but I would struggle with nutrition if I went vegan, kudos to those that manage it.

I sometimes cook from scratch using beans, lentils and the like, and sometimes can't be bothered and have the much demonised processed vegeburgers. (Don't carnivores have processed food sometimes as well?)

I also travel by public transport and haven't flown overseas for years. On the other hand, I regularly order from Amazon, a company which causes massive environmental damage and treats its workers appallingly. My flat is full of Chinese made products which were made by underpaid workers and travelled way too far to get to the UK. Even the smartphone I'm typing on was unethical in its creation.

No-one is perfect I suppose I am trying to say, and we should stop trying to pick holes in each other's efforts. Someone who has one meatless day a week is making a difference. Someone who stops ordering online and buys locally is making a difference. Someone who re-wilds an area of land is making a difference. It depends on the individual circumstances.

Ownedbymycats · 17/03/2022 11:33

Interesting how any discussion on veganism has posters refer to avocados, almond milk, exotic vegetables, meat substitutes and vitamin B12 deficiency.The only stereotype not mentioned yet is lack of protein.
I'm vegan and don't eat avocados or drink almond milk, it's quite possible to be vegan and eat a sustainable and healthy diet.
The vegetarian versus vegan issues are being highlighted recently on mn, it's not a competition. I don't want to follow a vegetarian diet and looking at the cheese laden dishes on any vegetarian restaurant menu leaves me in no doubt that there are plenty of stereotypes about that sort of diet.
Research your diet , whatever you want that to be and make healthy, ethical and financially sound decisions on what you eat.

I'm veg

RantyAunty · 17/03/2022 11:34

It seems that egg and dairy friendly vegetarian diets would feed the most people and make use of the land resources we have with and better for the environment.

Seems like a reasonable balance.

MargotMoo · 17/03/2022 11:38

People may “believe” or “feel” that vegan diets have environmental drawbacks but peer reviewed scientific research is very clear on this - eating locally reared meat is not better for the environment than imported food (most food is shipped rather than flown anyway and import is a very low proportion of the carbon output). Cutting out meat and dairy is the best thing you can do for the environment. Also, my meat eating friends eat far more avocados than I do so I’m not sure why that is used against vegans so often.

Regarding health and processed food, processed vegan food is entirely optional just like in an omnivorous diet. I don’t eat it particularly but will have the odd burger for convenience etc. There are many, many unhealthy omnivores - you just have to look around to see that.

Eat what you like, you don’t have to justify it with false narratives. I’m sure I’ll be accused of being an uptight vegan etc but it’s the meat eaters that start these threads with depressing regularity.

RockinHorseShit · 17/03/2022 11:45

I don't get the all or nothing stance, surely lots of people doing something, even something small is better than relatively few people being 100%. I suspect given their attitude they're not passionate about it beyond wanting to look like the

This with bells on. The pious holier than though vegans are a relatively new thing & IME it's all about "look at me, I'm better than you" gets right on my tits, as I don't know any life long vegetarian/vegans etc who would force their views on others this way. I had it only one 40 years ago & she was just a bitch who lied about her 10 minutes of veganism anyway

I've been mostly vegetarian, with occasional fish for over 50 years. I find a quick tot up of how many cows, chickens etc they will likely have eaten due to their frequently very short stint as a vegan & compare it to how many I've eaten in my life time & tell them to come back & lecture me when you can compare, soon shuts them up ... health & environment arguments rarely work as they are IME too far up their own pious backsides to actually listen🙄

Lindaloo08 · 17/03/2022 11:46

@SucculentChalice that was an interesting read thank you, I know times are changing but things like your friend's job not being replaced there is a sadness to it

JesusSufferingFuck22 · 17/03/2022 11:55

It's not the answer for everyone. We don't all react positively to a vegan diet.

BrightYellowDaffodil · 17/03/2022 12:04

eating locally reared meat is not better for the environment than imported food (most food is shipped rather than flown anyway and import is a very low proportion of the carbon output)

How on earth can beef from a cow raised, slaughtered, butchered and sold in the same county as me possibly have the same impact on the environment as beef from a cow that was raised on a concrete lot in America on deforested rainforest land, fed soya from deforested rainforest land and then flown half way across the world? Something very specific like methane outputs might be relatively similar because a cow is a cow but the overall 'bigger picture' effects must be entirely different.

Strokethefurrywall · 17/03/2022 12:06

Being "vegan" isn't the answer. Eating a whole food, plant based diet probably is though.

But what questions does it answer? It ticks the boxes for health (zero processed foods), it ticks the boxes for reduced animal suffering (minimal meat/dairy), and it ticks the boxes for environmental protection.

The world must reduce its reliance on animal agriculture if we're to make any drastic gains in saving this planet but the power of the meat/dairy/egg lobby is vast and very far reaching.

I think that if we return to less reliance on over processed, mass produced meat/dairy products, we may be able to help the planet (and ourselves) significantly.

MargotMoo · 17/03/2022 12:10

@BrightYellowDaffodil I missed the word vegan before food, apologies. My point was people try to argue that locally reared meat is better than imported veg and fruit etc and it’s just not true. Of course imported meat is worse, but vegans don’t eat that.

EricCartmansMagicalUnderpants · 17/03/2022 12:18

The supermarkets shelved are stuffed with vegan 'junk food' these days. I guess it's a lot easier for people these days then it was in the past, when people had to really think and plan what they ate to make sure they were getting enough nutrients. So many people saying they don't eat the vegan junk food. But someone most be. Quite a lot of people must be. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much space given over to it on the shelves.

Branleuse · 17/03/2022 12:25

@RubyFruitSunday

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

  1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

  2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

  1. Not all animals eat other animals. Plenty are herbivore or omnivore. We are hardly just fulfilling nature by eating cheeseburgers and peperoni pizzas.
  1. The english countryside without farming would likely look quite different and much more diverse. agriculture and farming is terrible for the countryside as it means artificially domesticated farm animals are over represented, have no natural predators, and affects the rest of the ecosystem.

Not that im a vegan. Ive tried it several times but cant stick to it

MargotMoo · 17/03/2022 12:26

EricCartmansMagicalUnderpants - that’s just hyperbole though - there is still far more non-vegan processed food. And I suspect non vegans must be eating it too to cut down their meat consumption which is very likely a good thing environmentally, for health and for animal welfare. I’m sure there are also vegans with unbalanced unhealthy diets - many people do it for animal welfare not for health and since most people in this country are unhealthy I don’t see why it’s such a big deal. It’s not the “gotcha” that meat eaters think it is.

RockinHorseShit · 17/03/2022 12:28
  1. Not all animals eat other animals. Plenty are herbivore or omnivore. We are hardly just fulfilling nature by eating cheeseburgers and peperoni pizzas.

@Branleuse, you do know what an omnivore is right?

We are biologically omnivores, so to stay fit & well we need to eat BOTH or supplement

Momijin · 17/03/2022 12:30

Animal consumption is a massive contributor to global warming. Even cutting down makes a big difference. Doing something is better than being perfect.

Most of the plants grown are to feed animals and not to feed humans so all the pesticides and land and water use would reduce dramatically.

And the ethics- it is awful to subject sentient beings to such a life when we don't have to.

BrightYellowDaffodil · 17/03/2022 12:33

@MargotMoo Ah, that makes more sense Smile

I agree; importing fruit and vegetables isn't ideal either but there's no getting away from the fact that meat production comes with greater emissions (literally!) which can only be mitigated to a certain degree. It's why I limit the amount of meat I eat to that which is farmed as responsibly as possible both in terms of the environmental impact and animal welfare, which means paying more for it because it doesn't come with the intensity that keeps costs down. And "Locally produced" can mean bugger all - after all, you could live next to a farm that's intensively-rearing chickens to the barest of minimum welfare standards and feeding them on soya feed grown on said ex-rainforest land and imported, and where they wash their effluent into the local river; there's nothing inherently "better" about that.

Eat what you want but consider where it comes from and how it got to you, is my way of thinking. Sounds like @RubyFruitSunday has got friends who - with all the zeal of a recent convert - don't see any nuance. People like that get right on my tits!

Momijin · 17/03/2022 12:33

@EricCartmansMagicalUnderpants

The supermarkets shelved are stuffed with vegan 'junk food' these days. I guess it's a lot easier for people these days then it was in the past, when people had to really think and plan what they ate to make sure they were getting enough nutrients. So many people saying they don't eat the vegan junk food. But someone most be. Quite a lot of people must be. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much space given over to it on the shelves.
By stuffed you mean a couple of 60cm shelves 🤣🤣. There are aisles full of animal junk food and hardly any vegan junk food. And even the junk food is pretty good stuff mixed together. And most vegans I know, including myself rarely have it.