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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if veganism really is the answer?

357 replies

RubyFruitSunday · 17/03/2022 09:17

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

  1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

  2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

OP posts:
Newgirls · 17/03/2022 13:53

@Hellorhighwater

One thing I’ve never seen addressed is the question of fertiliser. Plants don’t just need water, they need fertiliser. Usually composted animal manure. If we don’t keep animals, where will that come from? This is not to say we should eat as much meat as is considered normal, just that mixed farming is a thing for a reason.

Also, I wonder if vegans consider their carbon footprint. I imagine you can do both low and high carbon footprint for both meat and vegan diets, so neither is the answer in isolation. Vegan stuff is often heavily processed, imported protein, grown in a pretty unsustainable way, and not automatically better than local grass raised beef. Vegan shoes, for example, are generally plastic.

Vegan monoculture is just as bad as any other monoculture. And pests still have to be kept off vegan food. I don't suppose anyone cares about various insects, rats or pigeons, but fluffy bunnies, cute deer and so on in the country will be being killed to keep you vegan diet, well, yours. And in other countries it’s likely to be more exotic animals. Elephants still need to be kept off your sugarcane, don’t they? Veganism isn’t automatically cruelty free.

As always, with any straightforward solution, it isn’t that simple. I think the move towards eating less meat is a really good thing, but Veganism on its own is not going to save the planet. I personally don’t believe it’s even possible for the world to become vegan, much less actually desirable.

Fertiliser, feed, transport etc - these are issues in meat farming too

Recently due to lack of packaging gases carcuses from uk farms had to go to mainland Europe and back for processing. Road miles, chemicals, packaging etc. imagine the processes going in to making nuggets, burgers, plastic prawn rings. People only seem to care when that happens with ‘vegan’ foods?!

Palmfrond · 17/03/2022 13:53

Personally I think there are enough pulses roots and green veg grown year round in the U.K. to sustain (along with the odd tin of tomatoes) a very healthy, mostly plant based, low impact diet, but personally I think the judicious addition of meat (again, British origin and where possible local and/or organic) is essential, especially in our northern, gloomy environment.
I’ve tried veganism for about 6 months, just to try it out really, but found myself scrabbling for ideas for what to eat, and always ended up eating weird vegan foodstuffs made from imported nuts or soy that I couldn’t really get behind except out of desperation.

grey12 · 17/03/2022 13:56

We should all reduced the amount of meat we eat 🤷🏻‍♀️ in my opinion that doesn't mean you necessarily have to never eat another steak again!!! (If you are comfortable with/want to be doing it)

Newgirls · 17/03/2022 13:57

@WhatsMyNameGonnaBeNow

The truth is we are all part of the problem by reason of our very existence. The “all or nothing” approach of your friends and so many of the recent converts to veganism always makes me think of that saying about perfection being the enemy of good enough.

People choosing to reduce meat, fish and dairy and being more conscious of their environmental impact is a good thing. It’s an improvement. If large numbers of people “improve” it will absolutely have an impact and I think many people are making positive changes. Most people can’t and many don’t want to choose the “all” option but that doesn’t mean their efforts are “nothing”

IMO the “all or nothing” types are those who have lost sight of what they’re trying to achieve. Their focus has switched to how they wish to see and present themselves rather than the issue they claim to feel passionate about. It’s the I’m a better person than you competition we see so much of on MN but smug, self congratulatory, judgmental bullshit doesn’t actually fix the environment!

I agree - everyone reducing is the way forward. That’s going to be more effective long term.
Newgirls · 17/03/2022 14:00

@silverspacesuit

Can a vegan please answer this for me as I struggle to understand.

Why do we have canine teeth if we are not meant to eat meat?

I'm not trying to be funny and/or goady but would love the answer

Historically we wouldn’t have eaten meat every day. It would a rare thing for hunter gatheing communities.

But you know we are meant to evolve and learn. We don’t die in childbirth so much now. We live on an over populated island and we need to reduce our impact. So let’s take the advice and eat less meat and other carbon dense foods.

Newgirls · 17/03/2022 14:01

High Carbon emissions foods

JanisMoplin · 17/03/2022 14:02

I agree that people reducing their meat consumption- even if only once a week- is a good thing. All or nothing is a bad idea. Nobody should tell anyone else what to eat or be sanctimonious about it.

I don't agree that vegetarianism requires you to eat avocados or excessive imported food or soy products. I also do not believe meat is essential. Unless you don't know how to cook veggies.

Newgirls · 17/03/2022 14:02

@Palmfrond

Personally I think there are enough pulses roots and green veg grown year round in the U.K. to sustain (along with the odd tin of tomatoes) a very healthy, mostly plant based, low impact diet, but personally I think the judicious addition of meat (again, British origin and where possible local and/or organic) is essential, especially in our northern, gloomy environment. I’ve tried veganism for about 6 months, just to try it out really, but found myself scrabbling for ideas for what to eat, and always ended up eating weird vegan foodstuffs made from imported nuts or soy that I couldn’t really get behind except out of desperation.
We used to eat a lot of brown peas which grow in the uk and are a bit like chickpeas. They grow in our climate but are people really ready to eat them instead of say prawns.
Newgirls · 17/03/2022 14:03

@JanisMoplin

I agree that people reducing their meat consumption- even if only once a week- is a good thing. All or nothing is a bad idea. Nobody should tell anyone else what to eat or be sanctimonious about it.

I don't agree that vegetarianism requires you to eat avocados or excessive imported food or soy products. I also do not believe meat is essential. Unless you don't know how to cook veggies.

How about eating meat once a week?

Cheaper, more eco. Rather than meat free Monday how about one meat day instead?

Natfemale · 17/03/2022 14:04

This reply has been deleted

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BashfulClam · 17/03/2022 14:09

If vegans are eating Jackfruit and avocado flown thousands of miles but I eat a steak from a nearby farm….who has the lesser environmental impact? Plus Vegan Cheez, it’s like shit that’s been drenched in sock sweat 🤮

BrightYellowDaffodil · 17/03/2022 14:18

I agree that people reducing their meat consumption- even if only once a week- is a good thing.

How about eating meat once a week?

How about the poster of the second comment heeds the excellent words of a PP in not allowing "perfection to be the enemy of good enough". If people are trying and doing something to improve a situation, who are you to wag a finger and say it's not good enough?

Newyearnewme2022 · 17/03/2022 14:19

My adult daughter has been vegan for a couple of years, she gets all her vitamin and minerals from breakfast cereal, her diet is awful, when she visits I cook for her and I can’t pronounce half the ingredients on the back of the box of vegan sausages or burgers, so many preservatives and flavourings.

As the above poster said vegan cheese is 🤮 I’ve melted it for DD under the grill and the smell turns my stomach.

MargotMoo · 17/03/2022 14:22

@BashfulClam you would have the higher carbon footprint (and, yawn, non vegans eat avocado anyway). Local meat still has a higher carbon footprint than imported veg. A pp states above that you can have a high carbon or low carbon meat or vegan diet. Not true - a low carbon regular meat diet does not exist. That said, I agree with those on the thread that many people reducing meat is better than few trying to do it perfectly.

MargotMoo · 17/03/2022 14:24

Also have to agree with the comments on vegan cheese. I do really miss good cheese!

JimMorrisonsleathertrousers · 17/03/2022 14:25

@Newgirls

Meat industry in the uk is very problematic. I think if most people stuck to a roast on a Sunday and leftovers, maybe fish if they live near a coast and plant protein and plants the rest of the time we wouldn’t be in this eco crisis.

Meat and dairy farming isn’t eco. The UK imports 50 % of its meat and the Uk eats almost a billion chickens each year. How many of those do you see running around fields being ‘free range’. There is so much spin around meat production and people so close their eyes to it.

Eating meat should be a rare thing rather than the casual thing it’s become - burgers, chicken sandwiches, pork tacos, M&S chicken salads - it’s grim

Agree.

It's speciesism.

No one would allow cats or dogs to be crammed into sheds with no daylight with no space to move and having to sit in their own shit. Factory farming is cruel and disgusting.

JanisMoplin · 17/03/2022 14:31

@Newyearnewme2022

My adult daughter has been vegan for a couple of years, she gets all her vitamin and minerals from breakfast cereal, her diet is awful, when she visits I cook for her and I can’t pronounce half the ingredients on the back of the box of vegan sausages or burgers, so many preservatives and flavourings. As the above poster said vegan cheese is 🤮 I’ve melted it for DD under the grill and the smell turns my stomach.
Why can't she just eat vegetables instead of fake meat? And get her nutrients from veggies the way most vegetarians worldwide do?
lljkk · 17/03/2022 14:33

I thought British veganism was all about not causing harm to wee animals -- and nothing was allowed to be more important than whether harm was caused to animals.

So it doesn't matter according to the vegan mindset which way of life is less environmentally harmful I mean, vegans want to claim a benefit that their way is less env harmful, but even if it isn't, they'd still say the objective that matters = no harm to animals and this goal is MORE important than what causes most/least environmental or social harm, etc.

So that's why I don't like British veganism -- it's way too blinkered for me.

if you're allowed to call yourself vegan without making #1 priority what happens to the wee animals, then I think the answer is "complicated" about what is best for the planet, because the boundaries change in identifying what foods would become "vegan". I presume "veganism for planet health" reasons must allow one to have honey or crops pollinated by commercial hives, right? What about eggs, then, and why not say eggs are ok when there is a global protein shortage, and iron deficiency is The Number One nutritional deficit in the world. It's SCANDALOUS that there are so many malnourished children in the world, and iron deficiency is the most commonly missing micro nutrient. Sheer insanity to advocate removing sources of scarce nutrients from children's diets.

On a personal note, I had anemia issues when I was vegetarian (17 yrs). My anemia cleared after I started eating meat. Seems like Heme iron sorted me out. Heme iron is in animal flesh & eggs not in plant foods.

Palmfrond · 17/03/2022 14:35

@newgirls yes, I eat a lot of field peas! I think they’re very decent!

Also @newgirls I think most Hunter gatherer groups are a LOT of animal protein, some almost exclusively.
Pertaining to the British isles, genetics boffins think that’s why northern peoples’ skin became depleted of melanin- to better absorb from the sun the vitamin D that became deficient in their diet with the arrival of agriculture and the much reduced level of animal products in their diet.

RockinHorseShit · 17/03/2022 14:36

Can a vegan please answer this for me as I struggle to understand.

Why do we have canine teeth if we are not meant to eat meat?

I'm not trying to be funny and/or goady but would love the answer

I'm not vegan, but I don't eat meat.

We ARE meant to eat meat as biological omnivores, & need to eat at least dairy, eggs etc for dietary health, but some of us choose not too for ethical, or healthier digestion reasons

EricCartmansMagicalUnderpants · 17/03/2022 14:39

On a personal note, I had anemia issues when I was vegetarian (17 yrs). My anemia cleared after I started eating meat. Seems like Heme iron sorted me out. Heme iron is in animal flesh & eggs not in plant foods

How did you find switching to meat after so long? Did you have to come to terms with it in your head first? I haven't eaten meat pretty much for 30 odd years, although my reasons for giving up then aren't the same as now, and probably I would eat meat if the options available now were available back then. But now, after so long, the actual eating it would feel weird. I'm not sure how easily I could get over that.

NotAScoobyToBeSeen · 17/03/2022 14:40

The issue is our vast over consumption of everything, not just foodstuffs

OatSprout · 17/03/2022 14:45

I personally think (having looked at evidence) that eating organic food and unprocessed food, as locally grown as possible is much more important than being vegan.

Highly processed, factory-made vegan food and vegan meat substitutes are definitely damaging to the environment and the environment that animals live in.

It’s abhorrent that chickens and cows can be so cruelly factory farmed legally but organic and organic grass fed meat and eggs do not allow this. The emphasis is on animal welfare and many ethical considerations inc workers rights and obviously limiting and regulating chemical use.

The increased price reduces excess consumption and makes us appreciate its value.

Branleuse · 17/03/2022 14:45

@RockinHorseShit

That isn't the definition of an omnivore *@Branleuse*. Omnivores eat any meat & veg, not just dairy & eggs, omni actual means "all things" carnivores meat only & herbivores veg only.
In the dietary sense, a vegetarian is an omnivore, not a herbivore and not a carnivore
Branleuse · 17/03/2022 14:49

@BashfulClam

If vegans are eating Jackfruit and avocado flown thousands of miles but I eat a steak from a nearby farm….who has the lesser environmental impact? Plus Vegan Cheez, it’s like shit that’s been drenched in sock sweat 🤮
Is it only vegans that eat imported food?