To wonder if veganism really is the answer?

[RubyFruitSunday]

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

What would be your reason for going vegan though OP??

Is it animal welfare or planet health or both?

A truly 'healthy planet' diet is eating food which is only available in season and only that which is organically produced within a certain number of miles from your home.

If you're worried about not eating animal products then cut those out of your diet as well - and there we have your genuine vegan diet.

What would that diet look like though? 'Specially in summer when salad crops and fresh fruit is limited. How much would it cost per person?

@RockinHorseShit

1. Not all animals eat other animals. Plenty are herbivore or omnivore. We are hardly just fulfilling nature by eating cheeseburgers and peperoni pizzas.

@Branleuse, you do know what an omnivore is right?

We are biologically omnivores, so to stay fit & well we need to eat BOTH or supplement

yes, an omnivore is an animal that does not just eat plants. So a vegetarian that doesnt eat meat, but does eat dairy and eggs is an omnivore, or even those that mainly eat plantbased, but maybe scavenge too.

We are biologically omnivores. We can tolerate a lot of foods, but unlike carnivores, we can live perfectly healthily without eating meat, but we absolutely are not designed to eat as much animal protein as most westerners do

Millions of people across the world eat vegetarian and vegan without eating avocados, processed food or almond milk. Really fail to understand why this is such a thing on MN and in Britain. There are literally hundreds of veggies you can eat.

Compromise, I would consider myself a dirty vegan. So eat a lot more plant based meals these days but with meat and cheese etc thrown in from time to time. I think a good mix is required for with a leaning more towards plants.

I have no problems with eating meat but do try to make sure the meat I am eating has had a good life. I object to factory farming and battery chickens for example.

That isn't the definition of an omnivore @Branleuse. Omnivores eat any meat & veg, not just dairy & eggs, omni actual means "all things" carnivores meat only & herbivores veg only.

Compromise, I would consider myself a dirty vegan. So eat a lot more plant based meals these days but with meat and cheese etc thrown in from time to time.

I would consider you as a common or garden omnivore.

@Iamnotamermaid

Compromise, I would consider myself a dirty vegan. So eat a lot more plant based meals these days but with meat and cheese etc thrown in from time to time. I think a good mix is required for with a leaning more towards plants.

I have no problems with eating meat but do try to make sure the meat I am eating has had a good life. I object to factory farming and battery chickens for example.

That sounds a bit like someone who describes themselves as non binary because they don't conform 100% to stereotypes associated with their sex.

A bit like 99% of everybody else then?

If you look at the food chain logically, energy is lost at every stage.

So by obtaining energy from animals, energy is wasted as opposed to getting energy from crops.

Of course it’s not always that simple, when the infrastructure/type of crops that exist already are suited for animal consumption.

So it may waste some energy in order to transition to vegan farming but in future the energy saved and reduce in gas emissions will counteract that. Also the crops most livestock are fed on are generally flown in soy/corn based dry feeds which requires a vast amount more energy than all this ‘grass fed’ narrative so many people seem to believe.

There’s so many other issues with eating animals aswell, such as antibiotic resistance, zoonotic disease, high doses of hormones (lactating mammals), ethics to both the animals and people whose only option of work is in abattoirs, breeding these animals so they are no longer able to exist in the wild.

@RubyFruitSunday I think your friends are part of the problem with veganism. By making it so strict and stating that eating a non-vegan food even just once a year is unacceptable, they are making veganism feel very inaccessible.
I feel by making it more flexible, more people are likely to do it. And surely a nation of half vegans, is better than 5% hardcore vegans.

Compromise, I would consider myself a dirty vegan. So eat a lot more plant based meals these days but with meat and cheese etc thrown in from time to time.

Eh

Crikey dietary labels are starting to trump the never ending list of gender/sexuality labels

& you're an omnivore, just as you were born to be

Historically, there aren't any populations that are vegan. Even Jains eat dairy products. The healthiest populations, e.g. Japan eat mostly vegetables with small amounts of meat, fish and dairy

Meat industry in the uk is very problematic. I think if most people stuck to a roast on a Sunday and leftovers, maybe fish if they live near a coast and plant protein and plants the rest of the time we wouldn’t be in this eco crisis.

Meat and dairy farming isn’t eco. The UK imports 50 % of its meat and the Uk eats almost a billion chickens each year. How many of those do you see running around fields being ‘free range’. There is so much spin around meat production and people so close their eyes to it.

Eating meat should be a rare thing rather than the casual thing it’s become - burgers, chicken sandwiches, pork tacos, M&S chicken salads - it’s grim

@MargotMoo

EricCartmansMagicalUnderpants - that’s just hyperbole though - there is still far more non-vegan processed food. And I suspect non vegans must be eating it too to cut down their meat consumption which is very likely a good thing environmentally, for health and for animal welfare. I’m sure there are also vegans with unbalanced unhealthy diets - many people do it for animal welfare not for health and since most people in this country are unhealthy I don’t see why it’s such a big deal. It’s not the “gotcha” that meat eaters think it is.

Yes of course there is. Because there's more meat eaters. And meat processed ready meals are pretty grim too. But having observed it over the last 30 years when there was virtually nothing on the shelves for vegans or vegetarians, it's clear that the market has grown massively. There's not much vegetarian stuff on the shelves either particularly, I guess the vegetarians still lose out as it's easier for manufacturers to produce vegan food which vegetarians can eat, even though they may not want to.

It absolutely isn't. Shipping vegan food products across the world is terrible for the environment. Not to mention trendy stuff like tofu and quinoa are often produced by horribly exploited people. And stuff like almonds/soya bean/ avocado's are horribly water intensive.

The best thing anyone can do is eat as locally as they can to reduce food miles.

@WeirdlyKind

It absolutely isn't. Shipping vegan food products across the world is terrible for the environment. Not to mention trendy stuff like tofu and quinoa are often produced by horribly exploited people. And stuff like almonds/soya bean/ avocado's are horribly water intensive.

The best thing anyone can do is eat as locally as they can to reduce food miles.

Prawns? Coffee? Bananas? All shipped across the world. 50% of meat too.

Eat locally sounds great but the UK is densely populated. We import HALF our food. Scientists have told us that eating plant based diet will help with that massive issue.

Raising meat is un-eco due to their feed, transport etc

By stuffed you mean a couple of 60cm shelves 🤣🤣. There are aisles full of animal junk food and hardly any vegan junk food. And even the junk food is pretty good stuff mixed together. And most vegans I know, including myself rarely have it.

There's a huge amount of vegan food in recent years compared to even 5 years ago. I suppose it depends on where you live though. I'm in a busy area. And it's far more than just a couple of shelves. Maybe a check of the ingredients list might be in order rather than assuming it's all good stuff.

Yet despite a booming market in vegan food, according to the Mumsnet massive, no vegans are eating it. Goodness. Well I guess if that's the case, the supermarkets must be throwing in out every week due to lack of demand.

Not that I give a shit what anyone eats personally. If people want to eat meat. Fine. If people want to eat vegan food, fine. As long as they keep their purity spirals to themselves rather than dictate to other people then it's all good

I would consider myself a dirty vegan. So eat a lot more plant based meals these days but with meat and cheese etc thrown in from time to time.

So... Not in the slightest bit vegan then?

The whole vegan/omnivore issue has become divisive and toxic.

Much of the research uses skewed data and is funded by those who stand to make a fortune out of vegan supplements and plant-based-anything.

Studies vilifying meat are pointless as they include processed meat (burgers, sausages) and the crap that often goes alongside those - chips, burger buns etc.

Production of vegan foods contribute to depleting the planet of resources, where animal farming (high quality farming, not industrial scale farming) encourages a balance - animals eating the parts of plants that are inedible to humans, their poo nourishing the soil and plants, even the action of hooved mammals trampling grass is an essential part of its healthy growth within an ecosystem.

Industrialised farming is the issue here, not meat eating.

Most of meat eating IS industrialised.

A billion chickens eaten every single year in the UK. A BILLION! They are not raised on idyllic Scottish farms enjoying sunshine and fresh air. Yet the packaging says ‘happy’ chickens and adverts show fields.

The meat industry has pushed for ever increasing sales and profits and this is where we are today - aisles full of yuk processed meat products. Cafes/pubs/take outs selling cheap meat products. And ‘farmers’ are supplying them

It's not meat eaters we need to reduce, it's the world's population. Too many people in the world is literally the root cause of every single problem there is.

One thing I’ve never seen addressed is the question of fertiliser. Plants don’t just need water, they need fertiliser. Usually composted animal manure. If we don’t keep animals, where will that come from? This is not to say we should eat as much meat as is considered normal, just that mixed farming is a thing for a reason.

Also, I wonder if vegans consider their carbon footprint. I imagine you can do both low and high carbon footprint for both meat and vegan diets, so neither is the answer in isolation. Vegan stuff is often heavily processed, imported protein, grown in a pretty unsustainable way, and not automatically better than local grass raised beef. Vegan shoes, for example, are generally plastic.

Vegan monoculture is just as bad as any other monoculture. And pests still have to be kept off vegan food. I don't suppose anyone cares about various insects, rats or pigeons, but fluffy bunnies, cute deer and so on in the country will be being killed to keep you vegan diet, well, yours. And in other countries it’s likely to be more exotic animals. Elephants still need to be kept off your sugarcane, don’t they? Veganism isn’t automatically cruelty free.

As always, with any straightforward solution, it isn’t that simple. I think the move towards eating less meat is a really good thing, but Veganism on its own is not going to save the planet. I personally don’t believe it’s even possible for the world to become vegan, much less actually desirable.

The truth is we are all part of the problem by reason of our very existence. The “all or nothing” approach of your friends and so many of the recent converts to veganism always makes me think of that saying about perfection being the enemy of good enough.

People choosing to reduce meat, fish and dairy and being more conscious of their environmental impact is a good thing. It’s an improvement. If large numbers of people “improve” it will absolutely have an impact and I think many people are making positive changes. Most people can’t and many don’t want to choose the “all” option but that doesn’t mean their efforts are “nothing”

IMO the “all or nothing” types are those who have lost sight of what they’re trying to achieve. Their focus has switched to how they wish to see and present themselves rather than the issue they claim to feel passionate about. It’s the I’m a better person than you competition we see so much of on MN but smug, self congratulatory, judgmental bullshit doesn’t actually fix the environment!

Can a vegan please answer this for me as I struggle to understand.

Why do we have canine teeth if we are not meant to eat meat?

I'm not trying to be funny and/or goady but would love the answer

@Gowithme

It's not meat eaters we need to reduce, it's the world's population. Too many people in the world is literally the root cause of every single problem there is.

Well this is true.