To wonder if veganism really is the answer?

[RubyFruitSunday]

Lots of my friendship circle have transitioned to be vegan/vegetarian recently. I'm not, but we do choose to include very few animal products in our diet and eat a predominantly plant based diet. But sometimes I have a hankering for a steak or some nice cheese and so I indulge. However my friends think this means I'm part of the problem and it should be all or nothing.

I have a few issues with this but I dont know if I'm just clinging to them as justification to keep my animal based treats.

1. Animals eat other animals and we are animals. So I dont think eating meat is morally wrong from this perspective. I do object to factory farming and animals living miserable lives though. But its hard to tell what comes from where sometimes.

2. What would become of the English countryside without farming? I'm guessing a lot of the land currently used to graze animals wouldnt be suitable to grow other foodstuffs so would end up being built up? I'm not sure I like the idea of that either.

I'd love to know others thoughts!

@DdraigGoch

My apologies, my figures on male calves killed at birth are a couple of years out. Last time I looked into this the most recent figures available were from 2018 (so not that far in the past really...) that was, as I said approx 95,000.

Latest figures from winter 2020 state more like 60,000. That's sixty THOUSAND newborn calves removed from their mothers and killed shortly after birth. I'm still not ok with that, are you?

@RubyFruitSunday

Very true *@Carpy899* but how can we genuinely make a difference when most people think like this? I did myself for 30 years.

Fundamentally you decide where your line in the sand is. No one is perfect. But for me I don't want to play any part in an industry that separates mothers from babies and treats sentient beings as commodities. We know so much more about animal sentience now. We know they suffer. How anyone can justify paying for another's suffering is beyond me.

Agricultural farming is already a failing industry propped by governments. I'd rather see that money go towards developing more humane, environmentally sustainable methods of farming.

The vitriol from meat eaters on here is just weird. But despite all their bluster they can't defend the indefensible.

I personally don't think it's the answer but I do think eating more simply is and in line with how food is produced is the answer. I just feel that the further away a piece of food gets from the day it was killed or picked (ie the stages it takes to get from a potato to an alphabite or a chicken to a chicken dipper) the worse it is for the environment and the worse it is for our health.

Obviously this is flawed though because the U.K. doesn't produce enough food for us all to eat eating meat and veg produced by our nearest farm and also farm shops are fucking expensive.

I think we've got enough leeway there in terms of farmland if we stop animal agriculture.... I wasn't talking about 'animal agriculture' whatever that is. We need greater food security in this country. The war in Ukraine is highlighting that.

I don’t really know much about this.

But surely eating the way people did say 100 or 150 years ago would be quite environmentally minimalist… and along with improved animal welfare maybe not too bad?

So locally baked bread, butter, occasionally some preserves, porridge, cheese, occasionally a bit of bacon, apples, pears, plums, maybe a bit of chicken/beef/rabbit one a week. LOTS of cruciferous and root vegetables, honey, milk (high welfare). Salads/soft fruits for a few weeks a year. Barley.

I could eat that.

I think lots of people would find it VERY boring though? And it doesn’t sound very cool or virtuous.

OP, I think your approach is great. You cut right down on the meat and dairy, which will have a positive impact. It's not all or nothing, that's ridiculous. And you don't need to have a personal solution to the economic plight of UK sheep farming in order to make those dietary changes. You are an individual making choices to improve the environment and animal welfare.

The vitriol from meat eaters on here is just weird.
It's not though is it. It's perfectly obvious why.

But despite all their bluster they can't defend the indefensible.
They don't actually have to defend it though do they. If they enjoy meat and want to carry on eating it, then they don't actually have to defend that decision to you or anybody else.

@EricCartmansMagicalUnderpants

The vitriol from meat eaters on here is just weird. It's not though is it. It's perfectly obvious why.

But despite all their bluster they can't defend the indefensible.
They don't actually have to defend it though do they. If they enjoy meat and want to carry on eating it, then they don't actually have to defend that decision to you or anybody else.

No. They don't. I agree. And yet here they are.

[quote headspin10]@DdraigGoch

My apologies, my figures on male calves killed at birth are a couple of years out. Last time I looked into this the most recent figures available were from 2018 (so not that far in the past really...) that was, as I said approx 95,000.

Latest figures from winter 2020 state more like 60,000. That's sixty THOUSAND newborn calves removed from their mothers and killed shortly after birth. I'm still not ok with that, are you? [/quote]
I didn’t know about this. How horrific. I know they try to sell it as veal which isn’t popular though no idea why people are ok with eating a cow older but not younger. The more you know the more baffling it is that people are ok with it.

@VerveClique

I don’t really know much about this.

But surely eating the way people did say 100 or 150 years ago would be quite environmentally minimalist… and along with improved animal welfare maybe not too bad?

So locally baked bread, butter, occasionally some preserves, porridge, cheese, occasionally a bit of bacon, apples, pears, plums, maybe a bit of chicken/beef/rabbit one a week. LOTS of cruciferous and root vegetables, honey, milk (high welfare). Salads/soft fruits for a few weeks a year. Barley.

I could eat that.

I think lots of people would find it VERY boring though? And it doesn’t sound very cool or virtuous.

That would be great. We do have a massive population now though hence all the imports.

@BIWI

Human beings are omnivores. Back when we were hunters, we would have been eating primarily meat/fish, supplemented with berries/vegetables when available/in season.

We are now in a position where we can choose to be omnivore, carnivore (some people are!) or a vegetarian/vegan.

It's entirely up to you what you want to eat - and there are arguments from all sides as to what is 'best' for you and/or the environment.

When we were hunter-gatherers we mainly lived on a diet of small game animals like rabbits, along with fruit and vegetables, insects, honey etc. Fish/seafood for those who lived by water. Meat was otherwise a tiny part of the diet (Ive read a stat saying it was about 3%).

Rabbits running around would be more bearable to eat somehow. In reality they’d end up farmed in massive metal sheds to feed everyone.

@garlictwist

In terms of grazing land, sheep and cattle have massively changed the landscape, at least in the north of England where there are a lot of upland farms. There are much fewer trees as they were cleared for grazing and this has an effect on flooding and biodiversity.

If animal farming stopped the land could be managed to rerun to its original form.

However, I love a good steak so fuck the trees

Yes, I think this too (apart from I don't really think fuck the trees ) The 'natural' landscape people get up in arms about losing, particularly uplands, is actually barren; it used to be wooded and, as you say, much more biodiverse and less prone to flooding etc.

Personally I eat a little chicken (high-welfare), a tiny bit of fish, and I do eat some dairy, which I know is an issue from an animal welfare POV. I eat vegan the majority of the time though, quite naturally, as I get a veg box delivered and my cooking approach starts with what's in the box and I see veg as the dinner rather than a side or trimmings.
I agree fake meats and nut milks etc are probably not great for the environment in many ways either.
I don't think there's one perfect solution.

Dame I think your moderate approach would work for most and would still make a difference to animal welfare and carbon emissions. More people cutting back is a good start

DameHelena When we were hunter-gatherers we mainly lived on a diet of small game animals like rabbits, along with fruit and vegetables, insects, honey etc. Fish/seafood for those who lived by water.
Meat was otherwise a tiny part of the diet (Ive read a stat saying it was about 3%).

Some researchers believe that such food resources were much more plentiful in the past eg neolithic times, when the population was lower. They think the seas and rivers were full of fish, and also the climate was warmer at certain times. If you go to some of the neolithic sites on Orkney for instance, the midden heaps seem to support that and also that even limited arable farming could only be supported for a certain number of years until natural fertilisers could no longer compensate for what those crops took out of the soil. At that stage, the communities would move on somewhere else and start the process of cultivation again.

Sorry I should have explained those are dairy calves. (60,000 newborn male calves shot at birth in the U.K. every year)

Whenever we buy dairy products, especially from a supermarket we are paying for this to happen.

I emailed Tesco, Sainsburys and Yeo Valley who all confirmed the newborn calves are permanently removed from the mother (whether male or female) within 24-72 hours of birth. I've seen it happen and it's truly heartbreaking.

@VerveClique I like some of what you said re. Eating more the way we did 100 years ago, but what do you mean by high welfare dairy pls? Many of the practices in dairy industry are routinely horrible eg. Forced insemination, over production of milk etc.

@headspin10

Sorry I should have explained those are dairy calves. (60,000 newborn male calves shot at birth in the U.K. every year)

Whenever we buy dairy products, especially from a supermarket we are paying for this to happen.

I emailed Tesco, Sainsburys and Yeo Valley who all confirmed the newborn calves are permanently removed from the mother (whether male or female) within 24-72 hours of birth. I've seen it happen and it's truly heartbreaking.

@VerveClique I like some of what you said re. Eating more the way we did 100 years ago, but what do you mean by high welfare dairy pls? Many of the practices in dairy industry are routinely horrible eg. Forced insemination, over production of milk etc.

You’ve opened my eyes to the dairy issues. I’m sure most people have no idea

[quote headspin10]@DdraigGoch

My apologies, my figures on male calves killed at birth are a couple of years out. Last time I looked into this the most recent figures available were from 2018 (so not that far in the past really...) that was, as I said approx 95,000.

Latest figures from winter 2020 state more like 60,000. That's sixty THOUSAND newborn calves removed from their mothers and killed shortly after birth. I'm still not ok with that, are you? [/quote]
So a reduction of a third in two years. And that was before the practice was banned in red tractor farms.

@ohfook

I personally don't think it's the answer but I do think eating more simply is and in line with how food is produced is the answer. I just feel that the further away a piece of food gets from the day it was killed or picked (ie the stages it takes to get from a potato to an alphabite or a chicken to a chicken dipper) the worse it is for the environment and the worse it is for our health.

Obviously this is flawed though because the U.K. doesn't produce enough food for us all to eat eating meat and veg produced by our nearest farm and also farm shops are fucking expensive.

Indeed, the longer the ingredient list (and the more obscure the names within), the less the product should be trusted.

When we were hunter-gatherers we mainly lived on a diet of small game animals like rabbits, along with fruit and vegetables, insects, honey etc. Fish/seafood for those who lived by water.
Meat was otherwise a tiny part of the diet (Ive read a stat saying it was about 3%).

Hunter-gatherers ate plenty of large mammals
www.zmescience.com/science/early-human-diet-mainly-meat-826342/amp/

@DdraigGoch

Are we pretending 'red tractor' rules are always followed then?

You probably know full well if they're not being shot days after birth they're being shipped off to Europe somewhere and slaughtered as Veal.

[quote Carpy899]@DdraigGoch

Are we pretending 'red tractor' rules are always followed then?

You probably know full well if they're not being shot days after birth they're being shipped off to Europe somewhere and slaughtered as Veal.[/quote]
Parliament is due to debate a ban on live exports for slaughter this summer. I've no objection to veal being produced in this country.

Again, the number of male dairy calves being conceived in the first place is now a fraction of what it once was, thanks to sexed semen.

By the way, the proposed ban on live exports is only possible as a result of the UK leaving the EU. So the next time we have yet another thread about "why can't anyone ever name a single benefit of Brexit" (before ignoring all of the examples given), there you have it.

Sexed semen creates more suffering not less. The male calves are lucky in a way they don't have to go through 4 or 5 rounds of milk production until they're spent only to end up in low grade meat products anyway.

The dairy industry is the cruelest thing we as humans do to another animal in my opinion, it is sick.

@DdraigGoch

Absolutely, a reduction of two thirds is brilliant.

But it is still tens of thousands of newborn calves being slaughtered at birth unnecessarily, when you could just choose oat milk instead...

Red tractor is sadly another clever idea by the meat and dairy industry to help people to feel ok about the unpleasant practices which inevitably go on.