Uncomfortable with a good friend's opinion on Ukraine

[LifeIsWhat]

Of course he is entitled to his opinion, and I fully respect that. However, I am still shocked to learn that he thinks that, It is pointless for the Ukraine people to flight, they should just surrender and wait for the US and NATO to join the war. What's the point to fight a losing war. He made is clear that he would run away and let others to fight.

My argument s are:

1. why would other people flight for you if you are not prepared at least try to defend your own country? It is only nature to defend your home when enemy broke in and bluntly invaded your country.
2. Many things, from a toothache to a war, it is better to kill it at early stage, the price might seem high now, but leave it later will cost you much much more.

Anyway, I am quite surprised and disappointed...

I think the Ukrainian people are being incredibly brave and although I am full of admiration for them, I’m not sure I would be brave enough to make the same choice. In that moment I would want to flee and hide in safety with my family, not lay down my life for my country. And I’m not sure telling me that my death was the wartime equivalent of stopping a toothache early would help.

So I guess you can be disappointed in me too.

Mentality of Ukrainians is very different to British mentality. For all the obvious reasons. Its absolutely irrelevant what a Brit thinks he would do in a situation like this because he absolutely can not imagine what it is like.

Id run away too

I think the world needs a bit more kindness and love right now rather than two good friends sitting in armchairs picking over the actions of a brutalised people across a continent and falling out over it.
Go for dinner and talk about something else.

Had the same (quiet) debate with someone just today - I said pretty much what your friend did apart from 'let US and NATO' fight - of course they will not, this would guarantee a nuclear war all round!

His pointis (as is mine) that it's worth fighting with a relatively equal partner, but for a much weaker side to fight means just one thing - countless deaths and also provoking a mighty enemy to use much deadlier scary new weapond. It was in P's speech that Russia has cutting edge weapons even within the nuclear arsenal, let alone non-nuclear. What is the point of heroism if that brings destrucion of the whole buildings in a flash, including the cherished landmarks. as well as deaths?
By surrendering you could sort of trick the other side into being complacent but then (for example) not cooperating with the puppet new govt or demanding a devolved style govt with lawa of your own.

BUT I do understand that if a nation is swept in a the patriotic fever, you can't stop that either - it's just if it were my choice, I'd rather ordinary people in Ukraine stayed alive. So many are 'citzens of the world ' now with mass migration that I find it hard to imagine to be as patriotic as to be willing to lose your life! Other opinions perfectly valid though.

People can have an opinion. There is not enough news about the origins and complexities of this war.

He made is clear that he would run away and let others to fight

Quite easy for him to say so hypothetically, he may well think differently if he was in the thick of it. The truth is, none of know what they would really do, because thankfully the vast majority of people in the UK have never found themselves in this sort of predicament. I certainly pray I never do.

If he's otherwise a good friend, I'd change the subject and leave him to his views.

The whole thing reminds me of this book...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Strange_Death_of_Europe

Every day they resist & Putin is set back makes Putin look worse & the rest of the world look bad for not doing enough.

Mentality of Ukrainians is very different to British mentality. For all the obvious reasons. Its absolutely irrelevant what a Brit thinks he would do in a situation like this because he absolutely can not imagine what it is like.

And this.

yes, i was thinking about how the french surrendered to the nazis,
rather than see paris destroyed.
which it would have been. and the citizenry.
seems the right call to me.

p.s. and the emigration from Ukraine has been very, very high in the last ten yrs or so, mostly for economic reasons. Some come back, but majority stays abroad - I think they thought patriotism is pretty low based on that but those staying ar often passionately patriotic. If P wanted any success of intergating Ukr, he should haev done it long while ago, way before the current young president was elected.

NATO (which includes the US) will do everything they can to avoid joining in. The minute they do, it escalates into something much, much more dangerous.

YABU- you’re trying to argue about whose military tactics are better. Some people have left Ukraine and some are fighting, hard.You don’t know which is ‘best’ (if either) and neither does he. Even if he is 100% wrong and it’s an idiotic idea, he isn’t saying that Russia is justified in any way. So ultimately he is at worst misguided. Don’t argue about this. It doesn’t help the people in Ukraine.

I would flee too. My priorities lie with loved ones/self not with "my country".

Those poor people having this shit thrust on them.

@GeidiPrimes

I would flee too. My priorities lie with loved ones/self not with "my country".

Those poor people having this shit thrust on them.

And you expect the country that welcomes you to appreciated this attitude, as you will flee again and again and again when your new country/their people are in trouble.

He’s right

@kimbyy

Every day they resist & Putin is set back makes Putin look worse & the rest of the world look bad for not doing enough.

true! But in his case, danger is what else he would do as he seems to be led by a sort of fanatism. Surely he wouldn't want to just withdraw as for him 'strength' is key value. his cicle may force im to try an negotiate I suppose, but how much weight do they carry?

Mentality of Ukrainians is very different to British mentality. For all the obvious reasons. Its absolutely irrelevant what a Brit thinks he would do in a situation like this because he absolutely can not imagine what it is like.

I agree. The same can be said for Afghanistan and sadly a number of other countries. My family is safe I’m thankful for this

I actually just laughed out loud at this. It’s easy to say you’d stay and ‘fight’ when you’re sat on your sofa with a packet of biscuits.

To say you’re ‘uncomfortable’ and ‘disappointed’ is a bit ridiculous IMO.

People have different moral causes and don’t see certain ones worth giving their lives for, which is fair enough.

how easy for you to say the ‘right’ thing to do is to stay and fight 🙄. i suspect if it came down to risking your life and that of your family you wouldn’t find it quite so easy

And you expect the country that welcomes you to appreciated this attitude, as you will flee again and again and again when your new country/their people are in trouble.

I'd choose to keep loved ones safe over some patriotic duty, for sure.

As would you most likely.

@betwixtlives

how easy for you to say the ‘right’ thing to do is to stay and fight 🙄. i suspect if it came down to risking your life and that of your family you wouldn’t find it quite so easy

I never said it is easy, don't put word in my mouth. 🙄The right thing is always the hardest. A Ukrainians colleague from my team actually flew back a week ago, knowing what's going to happen.

Are you also disappointed in the Ukranians who are fleeing right now in the hope they can keep themselves and their families safe? Rather than fighting as should come naturally to them?

I highly suspect you don't have a bloody clue what would come naturally to you unless you have faced such horrors. I think your post is in very poor taste, but by all means sit on your sofa, in your warm house, thinking you'd stay and fight - very easy to do when your life isn't under threat. Some Ukranians are fighting, some are fleeing, neither is wrong.