Uncomfortable with a good friend's opinion on Ukraine

[LifeIsWhat]

Of course he is entitled to his opinion, and I fully respect that. However, I am still shocked to learn that he thinks that, It is pointless for the Ukraine people to flight, they should just surrender and wait for the US and NATO to join the war. What's the point to fight a losing war. He made is clear that he would run away and let others to fight.

My argument s are:

1. why would other people flight for you if you are not prepared at least try to defend your own country? It is only nature to defend your home when enemy broke in and bluntly invaded your country.
2. Many things, from a toothache to a war, it is better to kill it at early stage, the price might seem high now, but leave it later will cost you much much more.

Anyway, I am quite surprised and disappointed...

I hope I would find the courage to stay and fight, if not to take up arms directly as I’m not the physically strongest to assist with aid and organisation. I would see my child to safety first (and it would be complicated by having to find a place for her) but assuming I could then I hope I would find the courage to fight.

I don’t feel able to blame those that want to flee because unless I am placed in that situation I do not truly know how I would act, but morally I feel the right thing is to fight for your country if it is attacked.

Avoidance of conflict by all costs cannot be an aim if there are evil aggressors in play. Putin must be stopped and if not in Ukraine then on NATOs border.

This will sound callous but Ukraine as not a member of NATO was not a clear red line. natos boundary is. One foot over that has to mean war or he will continue, somethings are worth more than peace. The risk of nuclear complicates it somewhat - live in a World controlled by authoritarian powers or risk the end of the world by fighting for freedom? Life at any cost?

@Infinitemoon

I agree with you friend. I think that they should surrender. If you look back at this history of the Ukraine the Russians are not going to back down. Why obliterate your Country in a war that you can't win. There is no shame in accepted defeat and hoping other Governments/political leaders in the East and West will be able to sort out the future of this troubled country.

The Ukraine has had very little independence throughout history. Maybe just after the world War 1 and in the 90s.

You should know perfectly well that it is not the Ukraine. It is Ukraine. And that’s just the basics.

Or put more simply my life is not the most important thing I have - by behaviour, my beliefs, my community, my hopes, the life of my child and hopefully her children, the right to vote, to walk free, to be educated, these are more important than simply being alive. Defending what is right is never pointless

@Cbtb

Or put more simply my life is not the most important thing I have - by behaviour, my beliefs, my community, my hopes, the life of my child and hopefully her children, the right to vote, to walk free, to be educated, these are more important than simply being alive. Defending what is right is never pointless

and you think the Ukrainian civilians given a gun and forced to stay and fight against russian tanks and bombs are protecting that? You think they have a chance? None of those things you think they should defend as "right" can be achieved if they are all dead.

as for whether its The Ukraine or Ukraine. Surely we all understand what is meant. Just as if someone said The Algarve instead of Algarve

@Infinitemoon

People can have an opinion. There is not enough news about the origins and complexities of this war.

^This.

@Cbtb

Or put more simply my life is not the most important thing I have - by behaviour, my beliefs, my community, my hopes, the life of my child and hopefully her children, the right to vote, to walk free, to be educated, these are more important than simply being alive. Defending what is right is never pointless

Having different priorities and mindset is not automatically wrong though.

You’ve just proved your ignorance Branleuse, the Algarve is a region of Portugal like the Lake district is a region here.
Ukraine is an independent nation, one that was forced to be part of the Soviet Union for decades, 4 million Ukrainians were starved to death by Stalin in the 1930’s.

I would most certainly take my child and flee. I would not fight for my country and wouldn't encourage anyone in my family or friends to fight for their country. You can be disappointed all you want, but it's very odd that you are.

@BorgQueen

You’ve just proved your ignorance Branleuse, the Algarve is a region of Portugal like the Lake district is a region here. Ukraine is an independent nation, one that was forced to be part of the Soviet Union for decades, 4 million Ukrainians were starved to death by Stalin in the 1930’s.

ok so you think im ignorant. Its a name. Someone putting THE in front of a country is just a normal way of speaking that doesnt imply anything about their feelings or knowledge about that country. Most people here probably couldnt even place Ukraine on a map a week ago. Millions of Indians were starved by the British more recently.

The hypocrisy is startling.
I do care about whats happening to the Ukrainian people now, of course I do, but arguing semantics and acting like there is some sort of glory to what the men are now forced to do, and like youd do the same, is bloody stupid.

If I was forced to stay and fight the russians in this situation I expect id try and be killed as soon as possible if I couldnt escape or thought there was no chance of surrender.
I think too many british have romanticised notions still of dying valiantly in battle as a martyr. Fuck that

I think it's tragic that the Ukrainian men are not being allowed to leave. If they want to fight then of course that is different but being banned from fleeing to safety is just awful.

I absolutely think Ukraine should surrender, Putin will not stop till he gets what he wants - and the war just gives him more glory than a straight surrender IMO as it's a show of his strength. Ukraine will just be destroyed, so many men will lose their lives, families ripped apart, half the country living elsewhere as refugees....It's an awful, awful, awful situation but I'd want to be out of there and all my family out of there, I don't give a shit about defending a country. I think surrender is just the less awful of the options available although maybe I'd feel differently if I'd lived under Russian rule before.

@BorgQueen

You’ve just proved your ignorance Branleuse, the Algarve is a region of Portugal like the Lake district is a region here. Ukraine is an independent nation, one that was forced to be part of the Soviet Union for decades, 4 million Ukrainians were starved to death by Stalin in the 1930’s.

Why are you arguing over this? Do you never say The Netherlands or The Philippines or The Congo? All of those are just as incorrect as The Ukraine but in common usage. You're being a dick.

It may not be a total dulce et decorum est waste. The longer the defenders can hold out and slow up the Russian army, the longer the borders to safety can stay open allowing more vulnerable people out.
As a PP has noted, if they all surrendered straight away Putin can pretend they wanted to be welcomed back to the Russian family and the rest of the world can say ah well no harm done and ignore. If they continue to resist fiercely their desire to remain independent becomes more apparent to all.
It may also alter public perception of Putin in Russia itself. If it was all over in a couple of days, puppet government installed and home for tea and crumpets then domestically it would be grand. If body bags start coming back and more money gets poured in, and things go on and on, will the boss man be able to justify the war that he and a couple of mates wanted? How much can he control and suppress information? Can he maintain support for, or at least apathy towards, a war and more importantly the subsequent situation, if the Ukranians don't go full Vichy and a lot of money and troops have to be poured into maintaining an occupation?

“Having different priorities and mindset is not automatically wrong though.”

No it’s not. Of course it’s not.

People decide for themselves what is truly important to them. Many people believe that there are things worth risking their lives for. If humans had never stood up for their values then we would never have evolved as a society. May we all never be in a place of having to choose between what is important to us and our lives.

Historically the French surrendered in WW11 to stop Paris being destroyed and then worked with the Nazis to kill the Jewish people that lived their. Turning the other cheek is great for those that survive and can leave. What the fighters in Ukraine are doing is hardly pointless. They are holding up the advance, giving others the chance to flee. Do you think Russia will maintain an open border and let people leave at Will when it gets to the west? I do think That the men of Ukraine should fight as long as possible to let as many children escape as can be.

I try not to judge because I haven’t been tested but to run and then critise the sacrifice of those that fight to allow you to run is despicable.

Do you just shout: "FFS, you have no fxxking clue, you tone deaf twat?". well no, but people tend to be blunter to a stranger on the internet. Being called a tone deaf twat for criticising refugees is quite tame for mumsent.

Since when a debate is becoming so personal, you don't know me but automatically assuming me of many things (must be holding nice wine after a lovely dinner and washed your hair in warm water, and not she must be virtue signalling). When I explained that I am not what you assumed - it is also wrong, because "why it is always about you.". If this is not bully, what is?

I think posters were making the point that it is easy to think and say one thing when we live in the UK, never having lived through such a threat.

And, please do not ask me strawman questions - will you let your children.., what if.... there can be thousands scenarios and I simply are not claiming that I know all the answers. No one does.

But these questions are important to make an informed decision about what you honestly think that you would do. Not that it matters, because we still can't actually know for sure. And to understand that right now people are having to make really hard choices about staying or not (if they have the means to leave), neither one is more or less right or wrong, or "disappointing or surprising".

I say it again, My friend think Ukraine should just surrender straight away, and wait for NATO and US come and rescue and disagree with that. Especially a colleague went back to Ukraine last week. However right he might be, it is just broke my heart to think she is flighting in vain.

It's worrying and sad about your colleague, but she has her reasons for her opinions and actions and your friend has his.

@Branleuse

Id run away too

Same

@ChoiceMummy - I will repeat again, this is NOT why I start MY thread.

If you are keen to explore your question, why don't you state your option, and start a new thread, so you can discuss and ask people who willing to answer it.

Thank you.

@SC215

Do you just shout: "FFS, you have no fxxking clue, you tone deaf twat?". well no, but people tend to be blunter to a stranger on the internet. Being called a tone deaf twat for criticising refugees is quite tame for mumsent.

Since when a debate is becoming so personal, you don't know me but automatically assuming me of many things (must be holding nice wine after a lovely dinner and washed your hair in warm water, and not she must be virtue signalling). When I explained that I am not what you assumed - it is also wrong, because "why it is always about you.". If this is not bully, what is?

I think posters were making the point that it is easy to think and say one thing when we live in the UK, never having lived through such a threat.

And, please do not ask me strawman questions - will you let your children.., what if.... there can be thousands scenarios and I simply are not claiming that I know all the answers. No one does.

But these questions are important to make an informed decision about what you honestly think that you would do. Not that it matters, because we still can't actually know for sure. And to understand that right now people are having to make really hard choices about staying or not (if they have the means to leave), neither one is more or less right or wrong, or "disappointing or surprising".

I say it again, My friend think Ukraine should just surrender straight away, and wait for NATO and US come and rescue and disagree with that. Especially a colleague went back to Ukraine last week. However right he might be, it is just broke my heart to think she is flighting in vain.

It's worrying and sad about your colleague, but she has her reasons for her opinions and actions and your friend has his.

@sst1234 "Do you just shout: "FFS, you have no fxxking clue, you tone deaf twat?". well no, but people tend to be blunter to a stranger on the internet. Being called a tone deaf twat for criticising refugees is quite tame for mumsent."

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Thank you for the reply.

Of course, I am not criticising the Ukraine refugees. Leave or stay, I have huge admiration for the Ukraine people.

It is convenient to accuse someone by putting words in her mouth - maybe we all learned this trick from the MSM as winning a conversation and look good is so important.

I repeat it: I am upset because my friend think Ukraine should just surrender straight away, and wait for NATO and US to come and rescue.

This is the only reason I started this thread.

Also, my good friend is still my good friend, and we talked today - openly and honestly, with respect.

I didn't put words in your mouth. Tone deaf twat comment attached. Doesn't sound like you have great admiration for the 300,000 Ukrainians who have become refugees there. Night.

@LifeIsWhat

I assume that tirade was meant for someone else. But I guess your thread has turned into such a farce now, it doesn’t matter anymore who is saying what to whom.

It is fine for you to disagree with him and to be disappointed with his opinion. He sounds like a bit of a coward. Never attractive in a man...

As for those who say they would flee...where exactly would you go?
This is an island which makes it more difficult and no other country is going to take on the entire population of the UK

Your family would not be 'safe' anywhere anyway if you let dictators invade your country and just run away.

The Ukrainians know what the Russians are capable of and won't go down without a fight. Good for them.

If previous generations all had that mentality we would all be speaking German...

Yes, agree. The defeatist comments on here make me truly depressed.
The longer they can hold out, the better their chances. All this crap about putting nuclear forces on high alert shows that he’s having to ramp up the threats because it’s not going as expected.
It looks like the financial impact on Russia will start to bite. More weaponry is heading there from the West. The flight bans and exclusion of sports teams etc might be having an impact. It is vital to keep this pressure up and so everything that can be done short of a NATO direct response should be done.
The only effective way to deal with a bully is to hit them back.

I agree with your opinion. I have infinite admiration for the Ukrainian civilians who have taken up arms, as well as the soldiers, and I think it is awful to denigrate their efforts by saying "what's the point" - how insulting to those brave people. And I think saying "what's the point" is very much the opinion of someone who is not currently under threat of having their home invaded by a foreign army. (And I say that as someone who would 100% be getting on a train out of there because I do not want my baby to be killed or orphaned).

That said, I still voted YABU because I think this is all hypothetical for all of us sitting here comfortably in Britain, so I really don't think it's worth getting worked up over and being upset with your friend for.

@appleturnovers

I agree with your opinion. I have infinite admiration for the Ukrainian civilians who have taken up arms, as well as the soldiers, and I think it is awful to denigrate their efforts by saying "what's the point" - how insulting to those brave people. And I think saying "what's the point" is very much the opinion of someone who is not currently under threat of having their home invaded by a foreign army. (And I say that as someone who would 100% be getting on a train out of there because I do not want my baby to be killed or orphaned).

That said, I still voted YABU because I think this is all hypothetical for all of us sitting here comfortably in Britain, so I really don't think it's worth getting worked up over and being upset with your friend for.

Thanks for the comment. I agree with you and you put it better than I did. And yes, I already talked to my good friend yesterday. We are still good friends.

I would imagine that your friend is equally disappointed in you, with your sanctimonious posturing. If they’ve got any sense they’ll ignore you when you phone to say hi.