Uncomfortable with a good friend's opinion on Ukraine

[LifeIsWhat]

Of course he is entitled to his opinion, and I fully respect that. However, I am still shocked to learn that he thinks that, It is pointless for the Ukraine people to flight, they should just surrender and wait for the US and NATO to join the war. What's the point to fight a losing war. He made is clear that he would run away and let others to fight.

My argument s are:

1. why would other people flight for you if you are not prepared at least try to defend your own country? It is only nature to defend your home when enemy broke in and bluntly invaded your country.
2. Many things, from a toothache to a war, it is better to kill it at early stage, the price might seem high now, but leave it later will cost you much much more.

Anyway, I am quite surprised and disappointed...

It is immense bravery. The men on Snake Island (I think they died? I've read conflicting reports about whether they did in fact die but think it might be a disinformation campaign that says they are still alive) would have known that by refusing to surrender they would be killed. If there were 13 of them defending an island against a warship, there is no way they could possibly have won. They knew it. On one hand, it seems insane futility to resist. But on the other, they were fulfilling a job and they were honouring their country.

The man who bravely blew himself up to slow the advance of the Russians. Can you imagine? I find it hard at times to inject myself with my migraine preventative. Pressing the autoinjector against my thigh is a matter of mind over matter because I know it will hurt. But this man took actions that would be certain to end his life. He overrode every bit of his self-preservation instincts to protect other people.

Yet I see a news report that a Russian tank ran out of diesel and a Ukrainian national wound down his window to joke with them that they might like a lift back to Russia. They didn't even know where they were heading (I think road signs are being blanked out). They all had a laugh. What madness is that? People dying at the hands of the enemy in one area and joking with them in the next.

The Ukrainian people are immensely brave, whether they are fleeing their country or staying to fight.

1. No one will fight for Ukraine. The longer the war last the better it is for those who instigated the war, those who ramped up the political tension for years to today’s effect.

War is beneficial for the super powerful. Brains, wealth, anything worth anything would have escaped Ukraine. Where do you think they have gone? Think about it, where do the weapons come from and where do the rich and knowledgeable escape to?

2. you are neglecting the larger picture. Ukraine never had the power to fight back. It was never meant to fight alone and always thought the west and the usa would send troops to help. Ukraine thought the west were its allies. This is one obvious drawback of voting for a comedian as a political leader whose cabinet is full of his friends as opposed to people well versed in geopolitics. All muddle along well during peaceful times but grossly inadequate during conflicts.

Surrender as a political strategy isn’t a bad one right now. Retain whatever resources are left and negotiate. Without people dying. Russia does not wish to take over Ukraine, Russia doesn’t have the ability to take over Ukraine. The whole exercise is to show NATO that the Russians will fight back if pushed into a corner. It is a political stance sadly at the cost of many lives.

Ukraine has lost so much and russia will lose more in real terms. Economic sanctions will push Russia back to pre 2000 levels. Despite increased oil and gas prices in the last twenty years russia is still nowhere near 1989 level. If the west play the cards right, as I suspect the highly skilled leaders would, the super powerful may be able to get cheap/free oil and gas out of Russia as it did in the Middle East for decades. After all, oil and gas is all Russia has left with no other source of income.

You can call me naive, but do not assume that I am sitting on a sofa, drinking wine and writing this post for my ego. You project what's in your mind.

You keep returning to this as though it's some great slight.

But the fact is, you are in the UK and you are safe and this evening you have eaten and everything in your world is fine.

So stop making it all about you and your hurt feelings. Your ego is irrelevant. And stop proclaiming how the people of Ukraine should react to this invasion. You have no bloody clue.

@LifeIsWhat

The internet is not a place of Innocent till proven guilty - lessons learned.

I never claimed that I knew what it was like in a war zone.

I am upset because my good friend said there is no point for Ukraine to fight right now. They should just surrender and wait for NATO and US to save the country.

I also told him that I respect his opinion, and l do appreciate his honesty.

My father was in a similar situation (a real losing cause, but the right one, everyone would know it, but I want some privacy), and he chose to fight for what he believed. And I remembered the night he kissed me, and my mum goodbye and the childhood fear is still vivid. He passed away now, but fighting for a losing course might mean something instead of surrendering straight away? My Ukraine colleague who went back for a losing cause probably reminded me of this. My admiration to her (yes, a real person, who actually could be having wine and lovely dinner) is the cause of the disagreement with my friend.

You can call me naive, but do not assume that I am sitting on a sofa, drinking wine and writing this post for my ego. You project what's in your mind.

Good night.

Two of my best friends also defended the freedom of their beautiful hometown, In the end, they had to flee to the UK, but I admire their courage all the same.

A few other friends live in a country that is in a similar situation as Ukraine right now. They expressed their fear that if Russia succeeds, their small country might face the same fate. Every time during the election, hundreds of missiles will be shot around their island to scare them not to vote, but people vote democratically for their country's independence anyway. They are brave too, and it meant something.

Not everyone is virtue signalling with wine and a lovely dinner. Maybe an outlier on MN, but some of us or our family lived under tyranny. We know it will not cease its power. Therefore, we immensely appreciate the freedom the UK (of course it is far from perfect) gave us, and likely (I said likely before anyone jump on it) to fight to protect it because there is nowhere else to run to.

@Classica

It's so distasteful that the OP has started a thread about the situation in Ukraine and then spent the majority of the thread insisting that they're the true victim.

Quite.

OP, when the Taliban took over Afghanistan last year & 1000s Afghanis were fleeing terrified across borders and on foreign rescue planes, did you judge them harshly too? Did you think they were cowards for not "staying home to fight", as you say?
Just curious.

@katepilar

Mentality of Ukrainians is very different to British mentality. For all the obvious reasons. Its absolutely irrelevant what a Brit thinks he would do in a situation like this because he absolutely can not imagine what it is like.

So are not allowed to even mull it over anymore? Critical thinking doesn't happen in a vacuum

I think the world needs a bit more kindness and love right now rather than two good friends sitting in armchairs picking over the actions of a brutalised people across a continent and falling out over it.Go for dinner and talk about something else

What this person said - completely agree. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here.

First of all, I NEVER said that these who didn't staying home and fight are cowards. Please do not put words in my mouth. I clarified many times about my position. There is no point to discuss anything if my words are twisted just so someone can win a conversation.

To answer your Afghanistan question. No, of course I don't think so, it is not so black and white.

Do you think some (note, I said some not all) men took the limited seats on the plane, and left their children, wives, mothers behind to face Taliban slaughters should be applauded.

@anotherbrewplease

I think the world needs a bit more kindness and love right now rather than two good friends sitting in armchairs picking over the actions of a brutalised people across a continent and falling out over it.Go for dinner and talk about something else

What this person said - completely agree. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here.

@anotherbrewplease - Yes, I completely agree. Will text him tomorrow to say hi first.

None of us know what we would do in that situation. Our reactions would probably surprise us. The big muscle man from the gym might be a quivering wreck whilst the old lady from the charity shop may be throwing molotov cocktails with nerves of steel.

We would all want to protect our loves ones. If you are in a position to flee then most probably would. But if your family are hiding in a cellar from the enemy unable to get away then for many a primal urge to protect our loved ones and fear of what the enemy would do to them would probably kick in.

"they should just surrender and wait for the US and NATO to join the war"

This is never going to happen which tells you straight away what your good friend's opinion/judgement is worth.

No one really knows how they'll react until they are in such a horrific situation,. Those with money and family elsewhere will most likely flee, but others will stay and fight for their freedom and the freedom of their family. Your friend is wrong to say they shouldn't resist the Russians. They are doing a bloody good job at keeping back the Russians so far and the longer they can do that and the more arms they get from the West the better. War ain't cheap and the longer this goes on them Putin will have to rethink or scale back the attack which puts the Ukrainians in a long term winning situation.

@LifeIsWhat

I have full admiration on the people at the moment, are flighting for Ukraine, including my colleague who flew back last week. That's how the conversation started,

The disagreement came from that my good friend think it is unnecessary, and Ukraine should just surrender straight away.

This is not about me, or I want to look good. And no, I didn't have dinner tonight and sitting on my comfy sofa, to virtue signalling, as I worked over time today and will also do tomorrow (that makes me working 7 days this week) to pay for the increasing energy bill.

Oh no! You poor thing. I have so much sympathy for you! Working hard to pay for something you know will benefit you. Thank heavens you don’t have to worry about the supply being blown sky high.

I’d run. I’d take my kids and get as far from the tanks and guns as I possibly could.

I agree with the 50% 😉

The people who say they're going to run: to where?

To the countryside? If everyone does that, then wherever you're fleeing to will become a target too. Where are you going to sleep? What will you eat? Are you going to bring your entire family or just the immediate family? If you're married, is your husband going to just dessert and not fight?

To another country? If the UK is a target, so is the rest of western Europe/the US and the rest of NATO. If you have dual citizenship, I guess you could escape to somewhere safe, maybe. But again, what about family?

The people who say they'll fight - how can you possibly know? Especially all of the "I'm a grumpy old lady, don't mess with me" types. They'll shoot you in a second, menopause or no. Most of you would be on your knees begging them to spare your life.

To pretend you know what you would do is such a total slap in the face to the brave people who are staying to fight AND the brave people who are running to (relative) safety with their families.

There are no good answers. In the moment, you would do whatever you had to do or thought was right.

The debate is utterly pointless and borders on disrespectful.

Wow he has a different opinion, what a bastard.

@LifeIsWhat

I have full admiration on the people at the moment, are flighting for Ukraine, including my colleague who flew back last week. That's how the conversation started,

The disagreement came from that my good friend think it is unnecessary, and Ukraine should just surrender straight away.

This is not about me, or I want to look good. And no, I didn't have dinner tonight and sitting on my comfy sofa, to virtue signalling, as I worked over time today and will also do tomorrow (that makes me working 7 days this week) to pay for the increasing energy bill.

Because Russia has a much better army and they'll lose given that NATO are committed to NOT getting involved.

If that's the case every death between now and surrender to Russia will be in vain & someone's son, brother, husband etc.

Hate when ppl write stupid posts like this with NO idea of the devastation that war. Just no clue whatsoever.

I would just move on from it. The argument is pointless and not worth damaging a friendship over. No one really knows what they would do in this situation (whether they would stay and fight, or flee.)

Your friend is a coward who lacks morals, the Ukrainian people are fighting for their country, beliefs, culture, freedom and property.

I think the Ukrainians are incredibly brave and I am in awe of them.

Yes, maybe it is pointless to stand up and fight against a country such as Russia. But what's the alternative?
If they dont resist, Russia will simply roll over the whole country and play the narrative that the Ukrainian people wanted Russian rule, because "see how they didnt resist us coming".

Maybe it is pointless in the end. But at least this way, they are fighting tooth and nail with what they have, school teachers making molotov cocktails, anything they have to show they do not want this.

“The right thing is always the hardest”

What sort of a fucked up idea is that?

Why are you surprised friends have different opinions to you? He has different life experiences, of course he will have different opinions.

I have never had a higher opinion of a country than I do right now of Ukraine. Their president is an absolute hero.

I'd run too.

Bugger the "fight for my country" trope.

100% agree you should stay and fight for your own country just like Paleatine they will never give up even while the world sits back amd eats popcorm and watches them die.
Love double standards - very hard to have sympathy with double standards.....

shrugs and goes get popcorn

It's a complex situation and people may not yet have fully formed opinions. Worth listening to different points of view.